Shattering Norms with Jon Paul Sydnor: The Great Open Dance
Get ready to shake up your perspective because today we’re diving deep into the wild world of progressive Christian theology with the one and only Jon Paul Sydnor, author of “The Great Open Dance.” Right off the bat, Jon Paul challenges us to rethink our understanding of God, the Trinity, and what it means to live in loving community. He’s all about breaking the mold and shaking up those old, tired norms that often box us in. Throughout our chat, we’ll explore how embracing love and unity can transform our lives and the world around us. So, grab your favorite beverage, kick back, and let’s get ready to dance through some thought-provoking ideas that might just shatter your expectations!
Links referenced in this episode:
- substack.com/progressive-christian-theology
- barnesandnoble.com -Link to the book.
The Jon Paul Sydnor Exotic Cocktail-Courtesy of mixologist Coach Stu
Trinity's Embrace
1.5oz Aged Rum
0.75oz Coconut Creme
0.5oz Honey Syrup
0.5oz Chartreuse
Dash of orange bitters
Combine ingredients in a cocktail shaker with ice. Pour into a highball glass
Garnish with an edible flower
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we dive deep into Jon Paul's revolutionary ideas about progressive Christian theology, showcasing how he challenges traditional norms and invites us to think differently.
- Jon Paul emphasizes the importance of agape love, arguing that our inherited traditions often hinder the true expression of God's unconditional love for everyone.
- We learn that progressive theology is not a static tradition but a dynamic movement that encourages continuous growth and transformation in our understanding of faith.
- John Paul shares powerful examples from his life, emphasizing how community and cooperation can lead to profound spiritual experiences, akin to the unity of the Trinity.
- The discussion highlights the need for Christians to embrace discomfort in order to grow spiritually and collectively, illustrating that true growth often arises from challenging situations.
- Ultimately, we explore how Jon Paul’s insights can help us move towards a more inclusive and loving faith, bridging gaps between diverse communities and perspectives.
Transcript
All right, welcome to the Wise Guys, a podcast where we unleash the unthinkable and shatter the norms.
Speaker B:Wait.
Speaker A:Yeah, there it is.
Speaker A:Breaking glass.
Speaker A:We're shattering.
Speaker C:Okay, that blew the budget right there.
Speaker A:So we shatter the norms to help us see things differently.
Speaker A:So, hi, I'm Mac, your host, and in this episode, we welcome John Paul Sydnor, author of the book the Great Open Dance of Progressive Christian Theology.
Speaker A:So there it is.
Speaker A:He certainly.
Speaker A:I can tell you this for sure, gang.
Speaker A:He certainly fits the description of someone who unleashes the unthinkable and shatters the norms.
Speaker A:So we're going to have a really fun conversation today.
Speaker A:Um, and.
Speaker A:And we've been looking forward to this.
Speaker A:So strap in, because I think this is really going to be an exciting episode.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:What do you think, guys?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I'm going to introduce my.
Speaker A:I got my Wise guys, of course, Rev.
Speaker A:I'm ready to dance.
Speaker D:I got my dancing shoes on, and it's open.
Speaker A:And then we got Coach.
Speaker C:Coach is here.
Speaker C:And I am highly caffeinated.
Speaker C:It could be dangerous tonight.
Speaker C:It could be dangerous.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker C:Hey, let me say hello to all of you beautiful, exotic cocktails out there.
Speaker C:Let me tell you something, guys, okay?
Speaker C:John Paul and his theological ideas, kind of like the agape non dualism, could certainly be described as a rich, complex blend of deep flavors.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker C:So check this.
Speaker D:Check this out.
Speaker C:Imagine this.
Speaker C:Imagine this deep flavor drink.
Speaker C:Imagine this.
Speaker C:I took a lot of time coming up with this.
Speaker C:A drink that combines the warm depth of Christian love, agape love, okay.
Speaker C:With the smooth unity of non duality, maybe with a twist of mystical insight for that extra kick.
Speaker C:How does that sound?
Speaker D:All night coming up with that, didn't you, brother?
Speaker B:I'm honored, Coach Stu.
Speaker B:I don't recognize the book, but I'm honored.
Speaker A:So there it is, you guys.
Speaker A:You can hear John Paul in the background.
Speaker A:So let me just.
Speaker A:Thank you, Stu.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I want to see what kind of bottles you pour.
Speaker C:I actually have a real drink.
Speaker C:We can do that maybe later, but I came up with, like, a drink, like, real.
Speaker C:Like a real drink for this.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's really good.
Speaker C:We'll talk about it a little bit.
Speaker A:Maybe an umbrella or a piece of fruit or whatever.
Speaker D:How about that?
Speaker A:All right, all right, that'll work.
Speaker A:So let me introduce him.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You kind of heard him a little bit in the background there.
Speaker A:But John Paul is the author, as I already said, of the Great open dance, progressive Christian theology.
Speaker A:And we're going to really unpack that a little bit.
Speaker A:Tonight, it's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker A:He's also a professor of theology and religious studies at Emanuel College and theologian in residence at Grace Community of Boston.
Speaker A:He blogs on Substack under the handle Progressive Christian Theology.
Speaker A:And we'll put a.
Speaker A:We'll put a link in the show, notes about that, too.
Speaker A:When not reading or writing, he plays chess, soccer, and guitar.
Speaker A:And I love the way you ended this.
Speaker A:Okay, everybody, good?
Speaker A:You got that?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Chess, soccer, and guitar, all with stunning mediocrity.
Speaker B:Oh, I only do stunning mediocrity.
Speaker D:I found my people right.
Speaker A:He's right in there with us.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So welcome.
Speaker A:We're glad to have you on the episode.
Speaker A:I think one of the big things is you reached out to us, which was kind of cool, and started a conversation, but we've really been stimulated by the way you do think differently and shatter the norm.
Speaker A:So we're really excited about you coming alongside of us with those kinds of perspectives.
Speaker A:I think we've had some great resonances as we've talked.
Speaker A:You know, that's been a lot of fun, too.
Speaker A:And, you know, as I always do, I really enjoy taking notes and I call them nuggets from your book.
Speaker A:And maybe we'll talk about a few of those later.
Speaker A:So, again, welcome.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:It's great to be here.
Speaker B:I'm looking for the forward to the conversation, and I also just want to say, like, anything you want to ask, ask.
Speaker B:And if you disagree, that's great.
Speaker B:Last thing I want is universal agreement on all these issues.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That would be unhealthy.
Speaker D:You know, if you agree on everything, then you're all unnecessary.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So don't hold back.
Speaker B:And, you know, if there's anything you want to ask that you.
Speaker B:I mean, I tell my students this when I have a guest in my classroom.
Speaker B:Don't hold back.
Speaker B:Ask any.
Speaker B:Every question you have.
Speaker B:So please.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:You just unleashed us, though.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, you got to be careful with these wise guys.
Speaker D:I love a consciousness that says, I'm here to get my questions answered, but also to get my answers questioned.
Speaker C:There's another meme, don't forget.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:The Rev is like, not the memes all kind.
Speaker A:He eats us all kinds of those, so.
Speaker A:Well, fantastic.
Speaker A:Well, I think before we, you know, jump into some of the stuff in the book, you know, share with us a little bit about why you want.
Speaker A:I mean, you resonated with what we're doing and why did, you know, why did you reach out to me?
Speaker A:And want to be part of the podcast.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, I love the work y'all are doing, and I'm especially attracted to the work that you're doing as far as your.
Speaker B:Your vocation, your calling to thinking the unthinkable and breaking kind of the old norms that have held us in place for so long.
Speaker B:And what I'm increasingly becoming convinced of as I get older is that the norms that we've inherited are not sufficiently communicating the love of God to the world.
Speaker B:I actually think we're held back God's love for the world by the traditions that we've inherited.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so part of my goal as a theologian, and y'all are doing this as well on your podcast, part of my goal is to subject the entire tradition and its theology to agape, agape being the universal, unconditional love of God.
Speaker B:And if the tradition is agape, if that aspect of the tradition is agape, we can keep it.
Speaker B:If it's not a gothic, we've got to chuck it.
Speaker B:And chucking aspects of the tradition that are not agathic is going to disturb some people, because you're going to be leaving behind the familiar and introducing the unfamiliar.
Speaker B:And there are always some people who freak out a bit when you introduce the unfamiliar.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But the only way to create the world that Jesus envisioned and into which Sophia, the Holy Spirit, is inviting us is by shattering the old traditions and.
Speaker B:And taking this.
Speaker B:This tradition and turning it back into a movement which was originally was.
Speaker B:And centering that continual movement on agape that'll preach.
Speaker D:We got a rebel on a maverick.
Speaker A:Well, you know, here's what that reminded me of.
Speaker A:There's this guy in the Bible that kind of came and did the very same thing.
Speaker A:See?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:There were a lot of.
Speaker B:Yeah, and women as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:It sounds like we're going to be turning over some carts of consciousness.
Speaker C:Oh, here we go.
Speaker A:Yeah, about consciousness, that's for sure.
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker A:Well, you know, and I think.
Speaker A:I think together, one of the things that, you know, you.
Speaker A:You've said that.
Speaker A:That we offer together is, you know, some spiritual potential maybe that hasn't been offered by traditional theology.
Speaker A:And, you know, we.
Speaker A:We talked about this on one of the episodes where we have a tradition, you know, whatever it is.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And there's certainly some good things about that tradition usually depends on where you're coming from.
Speaker A:But so we talked, I think, in one of the episodes about, you know, running that through a filter, running that through the sieve, and said, okay, we're going to keep some of this because, man, it's awesome.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, we want to bring that forward.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because we don't want to lose that tradition and what it brings to the equation.
Speaker A:And at the same time, who.
Speaker A:Okay, take the blinders off like you're talking about.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker A:We got to look at things differently, you know, and that's exciting.
Speaker A:We try to do that.
Speaker A:Your book certainly speaks all over that, you know, so it's, you know, it's.
Speaker B:A very challenging process, and you're going to get a lot of pushback while you're participating in that process.
Speaker B:And that produces frustration.
Speaker B:It's also an extremely gratifying process.
Speaker B:And if you're with a group of people who are trying to create a better world, I mean, that's what Jesus and the original disciples were.
Speaker B:They were a group of people trying to create a better world.
Speaker B:Better meaning more loving, more inclusive, more universalist as far as treating everybody equally.
Speaker B:So also more egalitarian, treating people equally.
Speaker B:And that is about as much meaning and purpose as you can find in life.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And, you know, they didn't have creeds, they didn't have confessions.
Speaker B:What they had was each other, and they had a leader and they had the Holy Spirit, and they trusted in the love of Abba, their Creator, and move forward.
Speaker B:And I think we can start doing that now.
Speaker B:And I think that's what we need to do right now.
Speaker D:I'm really curious, John Paul, what have you gotten the most pushback?
Speaker D:Those are all ideas I totally resonate with.
Speaker D:What idea has gotten you or the most pushback from the orthodox Christian world?
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:The fundamental idea that's gotten the most pushback is also the unifying idea in the entire book, which is the social trendy.
Speaker B:And the social trendy is the belief that the three persons in the Trinity are actually three unique persons, so individual, subjective centers of consciousness that are united through love into one God.
Speaker B:And then a lot of people, when they hear that, will immediately, almost reflexively say, that's tritheism.
Speaker B:And so it's polytheism.
Speaker B:So it's not monotheism, so it's not Christianity.
Speaker B:And it's, you know, if they're really lazy, they'll say that's heretical.
Speaker B:But that's what I've gotten the most pushback on.
Speaker B:And it's the fundamental idea in my book.
Speaker B:And when I.
Speaker B:The final chapter of my book is basically addressing the criticisms of social trinitarianism.
Speaker B:And right before I wrote that chapter, somebody had accused me of being a tritheist.
Speaker B:So I was a little bit angry when I wrote that chapter.
Speaker B:I don't know if that comes out in the chapter or not, but I was kind of like.
Speaker B:Like very kind of crisp and definitive in that.
Speaker B:In that final chapter.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I think the accusation.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I think the accusation of tritheism is illegitimate.
Speaker B:I just disagree with it.
Speaker B:I don't think it's a.
Speaker B:I don't think it's a legitimate concern.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well, and tritheism, I mean, let's make sure that all of our listeners understand what the.
Speaker A:That word means.
Speaker A:That we got three gods, right?
Speaker A:Isn't that so?
Speaker B:Tritheism is the belief that there are three separate gods instead of one God.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So to me, I mean, I.
Speaker B:I provide an example in my book.
Speaker B:I mean, a real tritheism was Zeus, Hades and Poseidon.
Speaker B:They were three gods, and they were in no way one God.
Speaker B:They competed with each other.
Speaker B:Zeus knew that.
Speaker B:Poseidon, maybe not Hades.
Speaker B:Hades is actually probably the nicest of the three, ironically.
Speaker B:But certainly, you know, in the Iliad, Zeus sends a message to Poseidon, and he's like, yeah, this is what I say.
Speaker B:Don't mess with me.
Speaker B:I can destroy you.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker B:That is tritheism.
Speaker B:You really can't imagine Jesus saying to Sophia, don't mess with me.
Speaker B:I'm more powerful than you.
Speaker B:They don't work that way.
Speaker B:Perfect love, perfect cooperation, perfect harmony, and that we're made in that image to work toward that goal.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's beautiful.
Speaker A:You guys hear that?
Speaker A:Hey, listeners.
Speaker A:Did you hear that?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:That was really cool, wasn't it?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:You know, in your book, you talk a lot about Hinduism.
Speaker D:You're marrying Western and Eastern thought, and Hinduism is often very much misunderstood in the same.
Speaker D:For.
Speaker D:For the same reason, I believe.
Speaker D:Oh, we think that Hinduism has all these gods, but they're all facets of one diamond, of one energy and one life.
Speaker D:Can you want to talk about that at all, John Paul?
Speaker B:Oh, sure.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I wrote my dissertation on a German theologian named Friedrich Schleiermacher.
Speaker B:He's a Protestant theologian, and then a Hindu theologian named Ramanuja.
Speaker B:And Ramanuja was very.
Speaker B:He was.
Speaker B:He was very much a monotheist and who believed in Narayana.
Speaker B:But what's interesting is Narayana.
Speaker B:There's no trinity in Ramanuj's theology, but Narayana is married to Sri, and Sri is a goddess alongside Narayana.
Speaker B:And the people who worship Narayana today, they're actually called the Sri Vaishnavas.
Speaker B:So Sri and Vishnu together.
Speaker B:So there's a sense there that ultimate reality can be more than one and yet perfectly united.
Speaker B:And what?
Speaker B:The way you Translate more than 1 and yet perfectly united is non dual.
Speaker B:So 9.
Speaker B:And so part of my challenge in writing the book and bringing in Hinduism and Buddhism into the book was, for example, using the word non dual.
Speaker B:And it's not a catchy term.
Speaker B:Anybody in marketing or advertising would tell me to drop it.
Speaker B:It's a really important term to use.
Speaker B:I used it for two reasons.
Speaker B:First of all, it points us to a 2,500 year old history of intellectual thought in South Asia about our fundamental unity, number one.
Speaker B:Number two, the word non dual.
Speaker B:See, our minds tend to separate things from each other.
Speaker B:Our minds even tend to separate automatically.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And non dualism reminds us whatever you see that is two is actually not two.
Speaker B:It's not one, it's not identical, but it's actually fundamentally unified.
Speaker B:So if you want to interpret reality correctly, stop dividing it into 2, 3, 4, whatever.
Speaker B:Recognize it is distinguishable things are different from each other, but they are also at the same time fundamentally united with each other.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Yeah, and our destinies are entwined because of that.
Speaker D:That sounds like the vertical ball from grace.
Speaker D:Started believing in God and something else, this and that, when it was all just one.
Speaker B:Well, and instead of believing in our fundamental unity, believing in our division and that we can profit from the division and that we can profit from the division without harming ourselves, that is a, an extremely harmful illusion.
Speaker A:Right, Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, one of the things that I really enjoyed about even just the topic of your book is because, you know, I grew up in a Christian tradition and it was always, it was, it was always so difficult to try to explain the Trinity, you know, and so you always knew it was certainly separated.
Speaker A:You know, you got God, you got Jesus, you had the Holy Spirit and you know, the whole ice water, you know, steam thing that, I mean, everything always fell short.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And I just love when what you were just saying, you know, that part of this new deal, part of this new theology is to really start to make sense.
Speaker A:Well, I kind of hard use that word when you were talking about God, but I really love the picture that you've given, the unity that you've given it and how it works.
Speaker A:And I'm really hoping that a lot of our listeners can say, well, God, I never looked at it that way before.
Speaker B:Okay, right, yeah, it's, it's, it's actually an existential and it's an experiential possibility.
Speaker B:And it's actually a peak experience for humankind.
Speaker B:And I give two examples in my book.
Speaker B:One of is a marriage and they've been married for 60 years and the husband died and I was, I was paying a pastoral visit on the wife and she said, I feel like half a person now.
Speaker B:She had not been, she wasn't identical with her husband.
Speaker B:They were two people, but they were so perfectly united.
Speaker B:This was a great marriage, by the way.
Speaker B:They were so perfectly united that when he died, she felt like half the person.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's, that is, and that's a peak experience for human beings.
Speaker B:That's what you want your marriage to be like.
Speaker B:The other example I gave, you know, it doesn't just have to be romantic love.
Speaker B:I talked about working on a house with a youth in our church.
Speaker B:And we were on this, this slide a roof and we were putting a metal roof on a slanted roof because that was really leaky.
Speaker B:And the only way we could keep from sliding down the metal roof was I would hold one, I would hold the top with one hand, he would hold top with the other hand, I would hold the, the screw with one hand, he would hold the screwdriver with the other hand.
Speaker B:And then we went through and we put the whole metal on the whole metal roof on that way.
Speaker B:And so we were functionally 1 and 2 at the same time.
Speaker B:And it was a wonderful experience.
Speaker B:I mean, because we were protecting this cute little 10 year old girl from really cold weather in the winter.
Speaker B:We were working together, we were doing something meaningful and our cooperation was just perfect.
Speaker B:And that was a peak experience.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:The Trinity offers us peak experiences when we live into the image of God that we are invited to live into.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, that couldn't get any better.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You got anything steal what's.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, as I, as I read your book and I was learning more about the Trinity, I, I grew up as a Catholic, so I always tell people I'm a recovering Catholic right now because that's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker C:But I didn't really, like, there wasn't anything that I thought was too, like, there wasn't no 180 on the Trinity to, to what the Christians believe.
Speaker C:I know there's a different angle.
Speaker C:You know, like you might be sitting across a table and I'm looking at it from the east, you're looking at it from the west, but it's the same thing and I think you're just describing it.
Speaker C:So I'm going to Ask you for the Christians that are listening, that are thinking there's something entirely different about what you're talking about.
Speaker C:Explain, like how it's really very, very similar with you just looking at it from a different, you know, a different frame.
Speaker C:You frame it a little bit differently.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And what I'm really kind of doing here, and the reason why it might be unfamiliar to your listeners is because the Western church, which is the Roman Catholic Church, and then the.
Speaker B:The Protestant churches in the west, due to the influence of Augustine, they have tended to favor what I would call the monopersonal trinity, or more the belief that there's one God who assumes four different.
Speaker B:I don't want to say persons.
Speaker B:It's hard to get the language correct.
Speaker B:Who assumes four different expressions in order to affect our salvation.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And that's the Western vision, and that comes from Augustine.
Speaker B:In the east, in the Eastern Orthodox churches, they've always been much more open to depicting, depicting and thinking about the Trinity as actually three different persons in the sense of actually three different centers of consciousness.
Speaker B:So, like real persons who are coming together to form one God.
Speaker B:So it's really not.
Speaker B:What I'm proposing is not.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's historical.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:It's been in the tradition.
Speaker B:It has not been in the west very much.
Speaker B:It has been in the West.
Speaker B:And I'm.
Speaker B:I definitely.
Speaker B:I mean, I cite a lot of theologians that I have used read who stimulated my thoughts.
Speaker B:So my, My thoughts.
Speaker B:Not completely original in any way whatsoever, but it is growing in the west, and it's part of the reason why it's growing in the west, because it, it informs what the concept of the image of God really means.
Speaker B:And it means that we're made not as individuals in the image of God, but as persons who are made to enter into deep community with one another.
Speaker B:And by entering into that deep community with one another, that's where we're going to find holiness and sacredness and, and that's where we're going to find ourselves feeling like, wow, this is what life was made for.
Speaker D:Do we have to, John Paul, define ourselves differently than as we currently do on this planet, as physicality?
Speaker D:You said consciousness.
Speaker D:I like to teach that we are all thoughts, we're divine ideas, and that the mind of God is there.
Speaker D:Is that a difficulty for the orthodox Christian or any orthodox religion to take us out of the physicality realm and into the idea of energy?
Speaker D:God as energy, not as Jesus a man, or God as an old man in the sky.
Speaker D:But just as a possibility, a thought, an idea.
Speaker B:So there's a lot going on in that.
Speaker B:In that question.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:So I'll give two answers.
Speaker B:First of all, I want to.
Speaker B:I don't want to take us out of the physical into the spiritual or into the energetic.
Speaker B:I want to marry the physical with the spiritual, right?
Speaker B:And I think that we are embodied souls.
Speaker B:We are in souled bodies.
Speaker B:And so our purpose is to.
Speaker B:We should celebrate our physicality in every way we could celebrate our physicality.
Speaker B:For example, Stu celebrates his physicality by wrestling and coaching wrestling.
Speaker B:And that's a great thing to do.
Speaker B:And I think that pleases God.
Speaker B:I don't think God wants Stu to escape his body and free his soul from his body so that he can be floating around somewhere in some ether, you know, as a purely pure consciousness.
Speaker B:So that's one thing.
Speaker B:I want to be both physical and spiritual at the same time.
Speaker B:I like the word energy because I really think that we best understand God as a verb.
Speaker B:And I think that we are made in the image of God partly as verbs.
Speaker B:And each of you has an energy, and I have an energy.
Speaker B:And together.
Speaker B:And the problem with this word has been taken over by corporate American advertisers.
Speaker B:But together, if we can match up in our energies, we experience synergy.
Speaker B:And synergy, if you can free it from all the trappings of, you know, ExxonMobil and naming their gas cleaner synergy and whatnot.
Speaker B:If you can free it from that and really think about what it means historically, if you think of people as energies coming together to become synergistic, that really tells you.
Speaker B:That offers us a profound opportunity.
Speaker B:I'll just give one example.
Speaker B: at about the crew team in the: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And in crew, there's an experience that they can have.
Speaker B:You can get in sync because you're listening to the coxswain, and you're all rowing in rhythm with the coxswain.
Speaker B:Okay, that's very mechanical.
Speaker B:You can go fairly fast that way.
Speaker B:It's technical.
Speaker B:But crew members talk about a higher experience beyond that, and they call it the swing.
Speaker B:And in the swing, they're not functioning as individual rowers rowing at the same time due to a rhythm provided by the coxswain.
Speaker B:In the swing, they become one.
Speaker B:They disappear into each other.
Speaker B:And crew members talk about this as just the most wonderful, beautiful, profound experience.
Speaker B:I've never rode crew.
Speaker B:I can just imagine, and I.
Speaker B:And I trust their reports.
Speaker B:But to me, when crew members are experiencing the swing, they're really kind of experiencing our.
Speaker B:Our trinitarian basis.
Speaker D:I love that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:That's a great example.
Speaker C:And people can relate to it.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I.
Speaker A:What I loved about that statement was you said disappear into each other.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, what a great term.
Speaker A:You know, I love that.
Speaker A:So here's what we're going to do, gang.
Speaker A:We're going to, we're going to stop with that.
Speaker A:We're not going to end by any means, but we're going to stop at this point.
Speaker A:We're going to take a little breather.
Speaker A:We're going to regroup.
Speaker A:We're going to just take a couple of minutes and then we'll be right back and just keep this thing going.
Speaker A:So thanks for listening.
Speaker A:We'll be right back.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:Very cool.
Speaker C:Let me stop the.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, there we go.
Speaker B:Sorry if you heard my dog's tail.
Speaker C:Oh, no, I didn't.
Speaker B:See.
Speaker B:I was knocking against my.
Speaker C:That's awesome.
Speaker B:Table leg and I was like, oh, yeah, I had another dog.
Speaker B:I took the collar off.
Speaker A:I thought he got away.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Oh, that was such a great example.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Fabulous.
Speaker D:My grandson does do crew or has done.
Speaker C:Oh, is that right?
Speaker D:He told me he's not too into the religion, but he says, gramps, I think I know what you're teaching.
Speaker D:When you talk about meditation.
Speaker D:When I'm in that B.O.
Speaker D:my guys.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Well, they come together energetically.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And become one.
Speaker C:Like, like John Paul's saying.
Speaker C:But that's.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker A:Well, the non dualistic ideas, certainly, that you have in your book and that we have talked about many, many times.
Speaker A:Richard talks about it all the time in his church.
Speaker A:That to me is one of those shattering the norm concepts that, you know, again, orthodox, traditional Christianity or Christian.
Speaker A:I'd love to just.
Speaker A:If we, you know, for some of our listeners, just ponder that point that we're all see, because it creates duality.
Speaker A:I mean, the theology creates duality, you know.
Speaker A:And so, you know, to hit that.
Speaker B:Dualistic theology I'm increasingly developing an allergy to.
Speaker B:And I just like, if you start talking about heaven and hell.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or God and Lucifer or angels and demons or saints and sinners, I'm just like, no, you, you lost me.
Speaker B:As soon as you divided reality, you lost me.
Speaker C:You know, let me, let me.
Speaker C:I gotta share something real quick.
Speaker C:Yeah, we won't wait for the episode because this will take us.
Speaker C:But what you just said.
Speaker C:I was talking with.
Speaker C:What I would call is a more conservative Christian, I guess, is the best way to describe it.
Speaker C:So we were talking about heaven and hell because, you know, we started talking about.
Speaker C:Well, we were talking about you, John Paul, but then we started talking about the Shack and, you know, and then Love Wins by Rob Bell and that's, you know, so we were talking about all that.
Speaker C:And I said, so you believe in, like, tell me what heaven and hell are to you?
Speaker C:And as she described what hell is, I said to her, I said, so people are living that right now?
Speaker C:And she said.
Speaker C:And she was silent and she's like, huh, I guess they are.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker C:But exactly what she described, I'm like, that's not like.
Speaker C:You don't have to go somewhere to be there.
Speaker C:You are.
Speaker D:I've been out of heaven and hell ten times in one day based on my stinking thinking.
Speaker C:But it was so interesting to get her to see it just using her own words and say, look, people are in this, you know, and, you know, so that was like an aha moment for her, which was really cool for me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:If they're in hell on earth, then get them out, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, aren't we.
Speaker B:Isn't that what we're here for?
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker B:So, you know, we're to live in the image of Christ, and certainly there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus heroes hell.
Speaker B:So let's harrow hell and get them out of hell.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And unite, unify everybody right here on earth.
Speaker A:Let's get them out of there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:It's so funny because they're living in hell and sometimes they're the ones that are the resisting you trying to get them out of hell.
Speaker B:Very much so.
Speaker A:Very much true.
Speaker A:There's the fear of the unknown right there.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:All right, so where are we in the interview questions?
Speaker A:We're like.
Speaker C:We're like nowhere.
Speaker B:Any.
Speaker A:We've hit a lot of the points just without hitting the points.
Speaker A:I mean, we've had a great conversation.
Speaker C:Hey, let me.
Speaker C:Let me say, Rev, you have.
Speaker C:You have great questions.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, man.
Speaker A:You're like, good.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You're rocking it.
Speaker C:You're the rock star.
Speaker A:Yeah, he is.
Speaker D:I don't know about.
Speaker C:Good question.
Speaker D:Rock stars.
Speaker D:The guy just answered.
Speaker C:Well, that helps.
Speaker C:That helps John Paul to be able to say what he needs to say with those good questions.
Speaker C:I mean, that's good.
Speaker D:I do feel what you might think.
Speaker D:I do prepare a little bit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I don't have any judgment.
Speaker C:Come on.
Speaker A:So is this rhythm okay with you.
Speaker B:John Paul, or you it's going great.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:I'm having a great time.
Speaker B:I'm enjoying the conversation.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker B:I'm trying to keep my answers to the proper length, you know, if you like a minute max.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So just if.
Speaker B:If, if y'all are good.
Speaker B:I'm good.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:No, I think it'd be good in the second half to practically apply these ideas.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:How it makes heaven and hell on earth, how we answer the questions of earthlings today that are suffering.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, one of the things that I think we.
Speaker A:Per the agenda, but I think it's a good point to start to make.
Speaker A:Anyway, let's.
Speaker A:Let's start to talk about.
Speaker A:Well, what is a progressive theology?
Speaker A:I mean, we've been, you know, we've been all over it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But we can understand this.
Speaker A:But maybe some of our, you know, listeners, you know, might not be able to pull all the little pieces together.
Speaker A:So I think we ought to introduce the idea of progressive theology and then as we say.
Speaker A:Oh, okay, now I understand.
Speaker A:And here's how it fleshes out, you know, in.
Speaker A:In a.
Speaker D:Rubber Meets the Road.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or even maybe in.
Speaker A:In a.
Speaker A:I hate to use the word better, but, you know, we're always trying to make, you know, do it a little bit better.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's what we say.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm prepared to talk about that.
Speaker C:So I've.
Speaker C:I've got six points that are this.
Speaker C:You want me to read them?
Speaker B:Honestly, No, I really do.
Speaker C:We'll see if they match up with John Paul.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:I gotta keep these guys somewhat.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Within the boundaries.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker C:We go normally.
Speaker C:The rev is the bunny trail guy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I guess I'm taking that role tonight.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker D:All right.
Speaker C:Are we gonna start again?
Speaker A:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:Let's start again.
Speaker C:Give me the going.
Speaker B:Okay, you ready?
Speaker A:Yeah, we're going.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the Wise Guys, where we've got John Paul sitting there with us, who is just, I mean, you know, I mean, my head's kind of just spinning at this point.
Speaker A:You know, you got the deer in the headlights a little bit, but it's a great conversation.
Speaker A:I'm learning a lot.
Speaker A:The guys here, I think, are having.
Speaker A:Having a lot of fun.
Speaker A:So as we kind of come back, you know, into this conversation, I thought maybe it might be a good idea, John Paul, to.
Speaker A:Look, one of the things in your book, certainly, is to introduce a progressive theology, as you would, you know, call it in.
Speaker A:In the book.
Speaker A:How about let's.
Speaker A:Let's unpack that a little bit.
Speaker A:What do you, you know, what do you mean by that?
Speaker A:And, you know, where are we coming from?
Speaker B:So there's an increasing belief or increasing subscription, I would say, in American Christianity to progressive Christianity.
Speaker B:So you can Google progressive Christianity and you'll just, you'll get a ton of hits.
Speaker B:And more and more people are identifying themselves specifically as a progressive Christian.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so, and generally progressive Christians have, you know, a cluster of beliefs and practices that they share.
Speaker B:So, for example, generally progressive Christians are going to support the ordination of women, which might sound obvious at this point in history, but probably 90% of the churches in America do not ordain women.
Speaker B:Still, you consider Catholic, orthodox, and evangelical.
Speaker B:It's probably about 90%.
Speaker B:So that is still a minority report.
Speaker B:So ordination of women, coordination of LGBTQ persons as well, and, and support for them, like perfect, full throated affirmation of LGBTQ BTQ + persons in their identities, including marrying them, including ordaining them, protection of the environment.
Speaker B:And I think progressives, progressive Christians are generally appalled at the huge gap between the rich and the poor in America.
Speaker B:So, and around the world.
Speaker B:But, but, you know, we're talking about American Christianity primarily right now, so especially in America.
Speaker B:And so those are kind of some of the fundamental tenets of progressive Christianity.
Speaker B:Also, there's an openness to dialogue learned from other religions.
Speaker B:So we're not trying to convert them to Christianity.
Speaker B:We're trying to learn from them so that we can become better Christians through their challenge, through the challenge that they pose to us, through the conversation that they offer us.
Speaker A:Wow, there's a novel thought.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:It's a wonderful thought and it can be a beautiful experience.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So those are, those are kind of the basic social and political expressions of progressive Christianity.
Speaker B:On a deeper level, progressive Christianity embraces our being in time, are really our becoming through time.
Speaker B:And what are we becoming through time?
Speaker B:We are together as a community.
Speaker B:We are increasingly imaging ourselves in the image of God that is given to us at birth.
Speaker B:Okay, so what that means is that we are progressing through time toward the kingdom of God, which is a gendered term, familiar gender term.
Speaker B:We can also call it the realm of God or the reign of love.
Speaker B:And so time, time is now not just something that we're stuck in.
Speaker B:I mean, I mean, the idealists, the, some of the early Christians, they believed that time was something we should escape from into eternity, and the body was something we should free our souls from into a purely spiritual existence.
Speaker B:And so time and embodiment and materiality were all bad.
Speaker B:What we're saying what progressive theology says is that, no, they're good things.
Speaker B:And we are called to progress through time into the reign of love, which is a reign of inclusion.
Speaker B:Jesus included those who were excluded.
Speaker B:It's a reign of equality.
Speaker B:Jesus didn't create a hierarchy.
Speaker B:Jesus said, those who want to lead, serve.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And also into a reign of universalism.
Speaker B:Jesus did not go around.
Speaker B:It did not teach his followers to go around separating the good people from the bad people, the desirable people from the undesirable people.
Speaker B:Jesus said, you love them all unconditionally and then pray that they will respond to that love.
Speaker B:Which is to repent.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which is to recognize repentance is to recognize that our destinies are entwined, that we are one with one another, that we're fundamentally in community with one another and not separated from one another.
Speaker B:So now our existence in time is a blessing because it gives us the.
Speaker B:The possibility of advancing and progressing through time into a more beautiful reality.
Speaker B:And that's what I think is.
Speaker B:Is what's most important about the phrase progressive Christian theology in the book.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:Well, you know, we've spot.
Speaker A:We've said this word a lot.
Speaker A:Unity, you know, oneness, you know, and I thought it was interesting.
Speaker A:Then we also introduced this word universal.
Speaker A:Universalism, Right, Correct.
Speaker A:But one thing I loved in your book, that you took a bunch of Bible verses, you know, and he said, okay, here's what's God saying?
Speaker A:One, one.
Speaker A:One.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:One.
Speaker B:All right, one.
Speaker A:You know, I thought that really made a good case to just say, as we've all said, everybody's, you know, we're all together in this whole deal.
Speaker A:God loves everybody, you know, equally.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That's a little bit of a.
Speaker A:That's a rub for.
Speaker A:Especially for a lot of, you know, more, you know, conservative or orthodox Christians.
Speaker A:They haven't been, you know, they haven't been weaned on that.
Speaker A:They've been weaned on the fact that we got the, you know, the Innies and the Audis.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker D:You know, I want to explore, if I can, a little bit.
Speaker D:Yeah, I'm going to take us on a bunny trail.
Speaker D:You know, I spend a lot of time with my Baha'I friends and they talk about progressive revelations.
Speaker D:So there's that word progression and that it's the same voice.
Speaker D:It's the same voice that Jesus had.
Speaker D:Was in Buddha, was in Krishna, was.
Speaker D:Is in Bahaullah.
Speaker D:Who is their.
Speaker D:Their prophet.
Speaker D:I'd be curious as if is.
Speaker D:God is speaking through all of these Prophets and these teachers.
Speaker D:When is the next voice coming?
Speaker D:You know, when did we stop listening to God?
Speaker D:Oh, the Bible's done.
Speaker D:Jesus quit talking and now God doesn't speak anymore.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker D:Is there another prophet coming down?
Speaker D:What are those books?
Speaker D:Maybe it's yours, John Paul.
Speaker D:Where that oneness is emerging from what Jesus taught to a more progressive consciousness that's even greater than what's contained in the Bible.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:I really think we should have an open canon there.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:I went ahead and said it.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:And somebody.
Speaker B:I can't remember who it was, but I remember taking what they called Old Testament, which I would call the Hebrew scriptures in seminary, and my professor talking about someone who had studied the Hebrew prophets and their arguments for social justice.
Speaker B:Social justice.
Speaker B:Their arguments for a narrow gap between the rich and the poor.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:And when I say narrow gap between the rich and poor, I'm not just saying it's not just an economic claim.
Speaker B:When you start to become so wealthy and other people are so poor that you have to stop feeling compassionate toward them because their poverty will disturb you, then you have separated yourself from them, and then you have distorted the image of God within you.
Speaker B:Okay, so that's what I'm.
Speaker B:That's what I.
Speaker B:That's what I mean when I say they were concerned about the gap between the rich and the poor.
Speaker B:And what this scholar found was that the current.
Speaker B:This was a while ago, but that the leader in American history who had most resembled the Hebrew prophets was Martin Luther King.
Speaker B:So we can find stuff in the Bible that's disturbing, that is not agape in any way whatsoever.
Speaker B:And to what extent is Martin Luther King.
Speaker B:We do the letter from the Birmingham jail.
Speaker B:We can do that.
Speaker B:I have a dream speech.
Speaker B:They are clearly inspired by Sophia, the Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:They're clearly produced through his discipleship to Jesus Christ.
Speaker B:And they're clearly written and spoken in service to Abba, our creating and sustaining God.
Speaker B:So aren't they scripture?
Speaker B:Aren't they sacred?
Speaker B:Aren't they holy?
Speaker B:And can't we study them and preach from them?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And bring ourselves back into unity through those works by Martin Luther King.
Speaker A:Well, can I stop you?
Speaker A:Just right there.
Speaker B:Have an open canon.
Speaker A:The answer is yes.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes, we can.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker D:And I say yes.
Speaker D:Not only can, can we do it, we must do it.
Speaker A:Yeah, true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:The call is stirring in the center of humanity.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker D:To go back to there.
Speaker D:And I think it's going to get a little chaotic here.
Speaker D:But I love your idea about, again, the physicality the money in order to protect my wealth from you getting it now I have to close down my compassion and make you the other, make you the enemy.
Speaker A:It's a zero sum game at that point.
Speaker C:So, John Paul, let me ask you real quick on that.
Speaker C:What do you.
Speaker C:What do you think?
Speaker C:Why do you think Christians would be in such fear of that, what you just described?
Speaker B:Oh, it's so scary.
Speaker B:Do.
Speaker B:It's so scary.
Speaker B:I'm not kidding.
Speaker B:I mean, first of all, if you're really comfortable, I mean, a lot of people are just have tremendous wealth, and they have created a thought world in which they deserve that tremendous wealth and the poor people deserve their poverty.
Speaker B:So you would have to completely.
Speaker B:They'd have to ditch their worldview that has oriented them for decades, perhaps.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:That's really scary for a lot of people, number one.
Speaker B:Number two, let's acknowledge that the world is full of suffering.
Speaker B:It's full of economic suffering.
Speaker B:It's full of oppression, whether it's oppression of women, oppression of LGBTQ persons, or just.
Speaker B:Just like the suffering of somebody who has a chronic illness that they can't get under control.
Speaker B:And in a world like that, to be compassionate is really a big risk.
Speaker B:And I think that.
Speaker B:I think God is compassionate, and God expressed God's compassion by having one of the three persons who are God, Jesus, come to earth and live with us.
Speaker B:And that was an extremely risky undertaking for Jesus, and it actually resulted in tragedy.
Speaker B:It resulted in his crucifixion.
Speaker B:So God expresses solidarity with us unto suffering, crucifixion, and death.
Speaker B:So compassion is dangerous.
Speaker B:But God also promises us resurrection, which is that we're going to find our meaning and our purpose and the maximum beauty that life in this universe has to offer through compassion.
Speaker B:It won't be easy.
Speaker B:It's not the easy life, but it's the most beautiful life.
Speaker B:And it's the life that God wants to give us.
Speaker D:So does the human race.
Speaker D:Right now, we're going through a proverbial crucifixion right now in order to get to that compassion, to get to that place where we forgive ourselves when we forgive others for the sins that we have perpetrated on the earth.
Speaker D:With the dualistic thinking.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:We're in a time right now of intense dualism, which is nationalism, Whether it's Hungarian nationalism, Russian nationalism, or American nationalism.
Speaker B:That is a.
Speaker B:A worldview of division and separation, or if it's Christian nationalism, it's us against them, it's Christians against Muslims, Christians against Jews, and it's denying our fundamental unity.
Speaker B:And that is on the rise right now.
Speaker B:It has tremendous power right now.
Speaker B:And it is using that power very effectively to exacerbate our own human tendency to separate ourselves from one another.
Speaker B:And if we are made in the image of the Trinitarian God, which I believe we are, if we're made in the image of the Trinitarian God, then, see, and I could.
Speaker B:I can synthesize a Buddhist thinker with.
Speaker B:With Christian trinitarian theology right here.
Speaker B:If we're made in the image of the Trinitarian God, then our sole purpose is to overcome the illusion of our separation.
Speaker B:That comes from Thich Nhat Hanh.
Speaker B:That's not me, that's Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddhist thinker.
Speaker B:But he is thinking like trinitarian Christians should think.
Speaker B:And we need to bring more of his thinking and those who think like him into Christianity so that we can think better in service of Jesus.
Speaker D:That'll preach, brother.
Speaker A:Isn't that beautiful?
Speaker C:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker C:You got that.
Speaker C:That'll preach.
Speaker C:You've accomplished something.
Speaker C:Normally, I'm trying to get this every episode.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:So the Rev has brought up this terminology, and I know you've used this word throughout what we've been talking here, but let's clarify a little bit from your perspective.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We like to use, you know, Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:Well, it's.
Speaker A:It's the Christ consciousness in the person of Jesus, you know, that exists in everybody.
Speaker A:You know that.
Speaker A:It's not exclusive.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's given all across, but it's a.
Speaker A:It is a consciousness of unity, of the sameness.
Speaker A:When it comes down to that, what do you think about that?
Speaker A:Does that line up with.
Speaker A:Know what you're thinking or.
Speaker B:Oh, that lines up with.
Speaker B:With what I'm thinking.
Speaker B:I mean, Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God.
Speaker B:So to the extent that we share in Jesus's consciousness, we participate in it, we are full of Christ consciousness.
Speaker B:And then we become mediums or channels of God on earth, which is what earth needs.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:We need to be the love of God to one another.
Speaker B:And when we are the love of God to one another, that's when we experience all of a sudden, like, we don't even know how existentially wounded we are until we meet somebody who mediates the love of God to us.
Speaker B:And we realize, wow, this is how it could be.
Speaker B:I've gotten so used to how it should not be.
Speaker A:All right, cut ahead of you.
Speaker B:There's one.
Speaker B:I had one reservation about how you Phrased it, which is that, yeah, I try to draw equally on all three persons of the Trinity.
Speaker B:And so I would call it trinitarian consciousness because we're made for community and because I'm also, I'm trying to bring.
Speaker B:I was raised Presbyterian, and I think the Holy Spirit in a lot of traditional Christian denominations is downplayed, partly because the Holy Spirit can't be controlled.
Speaker B:And some of these denominations, they really wanted their order.
Speaker B:And that meant you got some theology.
Speaker B:You say what Jesus is and you're a good citizen and you go to church every Sunday, and that's what being Christian is.
Speaker B:Whereas the Holy Spirit is disruptive.
Speaker B:The Holy Spirit is.
Speaker B:She is always trying to create a new world.
Speaker B:She's immensely creative.
Speaker B:She's an artist.
Speaker B:And so I, I, I try to draw on Christ, Spirit and Abba, yeah, the Creator, sustainer, God, equally in my theology.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker D:A quick question.
Speaker D:Is, Sophia, is the Holy Spirit doing this for us, around us, through us, or as us?
Speaker D:You know, I like to look at Jesus as not.
Speaker D:I teach this all the time.
Speaker D:Jesus is not the great exception.
Speaker D:He is the example.
Speaker D:And that we can have that equal playing field and have that same experience of the oneness with God in our consciousness is that.
Speaker D:Do you think that's possible?
Speaker B:I could be able to do it perfectly.
Speaker B:But to the extent that we can do it, that's the extent to which our lives will become beautiful.
Speaker B:And so we have to try.
Speaker B:And I just remember in seminary, people saying, jesus is not an exemplar.
Speaker B:You cannot be like Jesus.
Speaker B:You're such a failure that Jesus had to die on the cross as a sacrifice for your sins to keep you from going to hell for all eternity when you died.
Speaker B:Don't even try to imitate Jesus.
Speaker B:And I was just like, it never made any sense to me.
Speaker B:I mean, I knew, I mean, I could feel.
Speaker B:That's the other thing.
Speaker B:We don't talk about enough about feeling.
Speaker B:We talk about thinking and doing, but not enough about feeling.
Speaker B:And I could feel when I was in the presence of deeply Christ like people, that the universe and my life in it was sacred.
Speaker B:And I could feel when I was in the presence of people who were felt, you know, reasonably polite people, but who felt like they were fundamentally separate from me, who might want to hang out with me for a little bit because we could have fun together but weren't really going to be inconvenienced in any way whatsoever by my friendship.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I could feel that that was not the purpose of human life.
Speaker B:And so yes, I think we're called to see Jesus as an exemplar, to live within his example, to mediate the love of God to one another.
Speaker B:And when that, that is going to be a self verifying practice, we are going to feel its validity when we do that.
Speaker C:You know, it's so interesting when people deny this.
Speaker C:Jesus said this.
Speaker C:And like he said it, he said like you're going to do greater things than even I'm doing.
Speaker C:Like he said it, like, why not believe him?
Speaker D:You know, I'm not a Bible scholar, but I never read where he guy said, worship me.
Speaker D:Worship me.
Speaker D:He said, follow me, follow me.
Speaker C:Let me show you how to do this.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead, Stu.
Speaker C:No, go ahead, John Paul, he said.
Speaker B:You will do things greater than these things, right?
Speaker B:Because you are many, because there are a lot and you can do them together and then imagine what it feels like to do them together.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you know, my, my church, every summer we go up to, I don't mean to sound triumphant or self congratulatory or anything, but we go up to Maine and we do rural rehab in Maine.
Speaker B:Because in Maine a lot of people own their homes.
Speaker B:They, they inherit their homes, but they don't earn enough money to maintain them.
Speaker B:And then in Maine it gets down to, you know, negative 20, negative 30 in the winter and it can be really cold and wet in those homes.
Speaker B:So we go up there, we just put on new road, new roofs.
Speaker A:We negative 30.
Speaker B:Yeah, we make them waterproof, we insulate them, put in heating units, stuff like that.
Speaker B:And you know, every year, I mean I work hard and I've had three children, they're growing up now, but you know, three this, I got tired, I was just like, oh man, August.
Speaker B:I just want to go on vacation.
Speaker B:And we're going on mission trip instead of going on vacation.
Speaker B:Geez.
Speaker B:And then I go on the mission trip and it's wonderful.
Speaker B:And because we're with wonderful people doing wonderful things and then we, we work eight hours a day and then we come back and we socialize and we have a blast together.
Speaker B:Sure, we have, we have as much fun in the church that we stay in, in this little, you know, church room which is like, you know, concrete walls and, and a, and a linoleum floor.
Speaker B:We have as much fun in that room after we've done a meaningful days of work as anybody has anywhere on planet.
Speaker B:On the planet, no matter how expensive the resort they're in.
Speaker D:I love the energy of what you're talking About.
Speaker D:And two things come to mind here.
Speaker D:And I'm going on another bunny.
Speaker C:Let's go.
Speaker D:My gift.
Speaker A:Wait a minute now.
Speaker D:You know, I don't know who was it that said it.
Speaker D:Let's stop flapping our gums about the Christ and let's start being the Christ.
Speaker D:And that's exactly what you're talking about right there.
Speaker D:And then Pierre de Chardin said, forgive my French pronunciation, that joy is the infallible sign of the presence of God.
Speaker D:So what I see is that you're living the Christ, you're channeling the Christ, you're being the Christ.
Speaker D:And that's where the greatest joy, that's where heaven finds its way on earth.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And we have to.
Speaker C:People have to believe they can do this.
Speaker C:Like, this is.
Speaker C:This is what we're trying to help people realize.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:This is possible for you.
Speaker C:This isn't unreachable.
Speaker C:Like, you can do it.
Speaker C:It's kind of like the same thing I tell my.
Speaker C:That my wrestling team, beginning of every season, you're going to do things that you don't even know you can do right now.
Speaker C:But if you just trust me.
Speaker C:And there's the key word, right?
Speaker C:You just trust me, it's going to happen.
Speaker C:And I'm like, do you trust me?
Speaker C:I always ask, like, yes.
Speaker C:So maybe we just need to do that with people to look, do you trust God?
Speaker C:Do you trust Jesus?
Speaker C:And if they acknowledge that, yes.
Speaker C:Okay, let's go.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Just imagine saying to a church what you stu.
Speaker B:Say to your wrestlers.
Speaker B:You're going to do things you can't imagine doing, and it's going to change you.
Speaker B:It's going to transform you as a.
Speaker B:As a community, and it's.
Speaker B:And you're going to experience beauty and become beauty that you would never imagine possible.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Well, I love.
Speaker A:I love how you frame the whole thing because from my experience, you know, certainly this Holy Spirit's the redheaded stepchild.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:And for those reasons, for without a doubt that.
Speaker A:That you just mentioned that, first of all, it's uncontrollable.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:And most churches don't like the fact that somebody can be.
Speaker A:Let alone a spirit, but, you know, somebody can be a, you know, out of control or at least not controllable from their standpoint.
Speaker A:And I think so much of what you're talking about, in order to implement it, in order to be it, in order to have it and do it to me, you know, that God had to include the spirit.
Speaker A:And I think that's what I really love about your.
Speaker A:Your.
Speaker A:Your trinitarian diaba thing.
Speaker A:It doesn't lead the Holy Spirit out of the equation.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And I'm.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:And that's actually been transformative for me because I kind of.
Speaker B:I mean, I was changed by the process of writing the book, and I made theological discoveries while I was writing the book.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker B:I kind of realized, you know, I refer to Jesus as He, the Holy Spirit as she, and Abba, the Creator sustainer, as.
Speaker B:As they.
Speaker B:Because Abba is mother and father God in the Hebrew scriptures and according to Jesus.
Speaker B:So I do all three of those.
Speaker B:And then I kind of realized, you know, there's a lot more stories about Jesus than about the Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:And in my church, my tradition talks a lot more about Jesus than the Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:So if I'm going to make Jesus he.
Speaker B:And Sophia, she.
Speaker B:I need to talk about Sophia more.
Speaker B:And that was a discovery to me, and it made me actually more open to the experience of the Holy Spirit in my life and to the activity of the Holy Spirit in the world.
Speaker B:And that has been enriching for me.
Speaker B:I mean, I feel more excited to be a human on earth due to that discovery.
Speaker A:I totally agree.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, Paul says in Galatians, you know, if you read the message, he just says, be animated and directed by the Spirit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, you do that, and guess what?
Speaker B:That's the fullness of life.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's beautiful.
Speaker A:You know, and I think another thing that I liked what you did in the book is you said Christianity.
Speaker A:And I love this as a progressive movement, not a static tradition.
Speaker A:And that, boy, if you can get that through some people's head, you know, now we're on the movement.
Speaker A:We're not hunkered down, you know, and Rev talks about that kind of stuff all the time.
Speaker A:And, you know, Stu's doesn't.
Speaker A:By the end of the season of him, it is wrestling at kids and everything out there.
Speaker A:No way they're the same as what they started.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, it's a progression, right?
Speaker A:And that's beautiful.
Speaker A:I love the way you kind of, you know, flesh that out and put that in the book.
Speaker B:So one of the most dangerous thoughts in the history of Christianity was or is, and a lot of people still share this thought, is that everything that happened in the early church or everything that happened as the.
Speaker B:As the Christian tradition evolved, everything was guided by the Holy Spirit, so no mistakes were made.
Speaker B:So we should never change anything.
Speaker B:And I think that was the exact opposite of what Jesus was trying to do.
Speaker B:I mean, Jesus was a reformer and he wanted the world to be transformed and always transforming.
Speaker B:And once you lock the Holy Spirit into tradition and you say we can't change the tradition because that would offend the Holy Spirit, then you can no longer transform, you can't improve, you can't get better.
Speaker B:And you know, we all know people in our lives who are suffering.
Speaker B:There's some type of self imposed suffering and they need to get better, but they can't because they're afraid to let go of whatever is causing their suffering.
Speaker B:We all know people like that.
Speaker B:And I think to a certain extent you can see the Christian tradition in that way.
Speaker B:There are aspects of the tradition that are causing it and people within it to suffer.
Speaker B:And so many people within the tradition are afraid to let go of what is causing that suffering.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And Jesus is a healer.
Speaker B:And if you're a healer, you're a change agent.
Speaker B:So, so let's be change agents.
Speaker B:Let's let Sophia do her work and let's, let's let her be the change agent and let's change.
Speaker D:We have to, in order to invite that comfort, get to the edge of our pain, the depth of our pain.
Speaker D:I think it was Anias Nin who said something to the effect of.
Speaker D:And the time came when the fear of blooming was outweighed by the pain of staying tight in the butt that we're going to get to the place where it is so dark and so difficult that we are forced, turn ourselves over to surrender to that spirit and be led.
Speaker C:That's why I always encourage everybody to make that happen.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Be proactive with it.
Speaker C:Why don't wait, don't sit back and wait for the change.
Speaker C:Like let's, let's make it happen.
Speaker C:Yeah, right, right.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker C:I mean, faith and relate your relationship with God to me.
Speaker C:It's all, there's action in it.
Speaker C:It's not like you sit back and just kind of wait for things to happen.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're supposed to do things and we're going to find our, our, our fullness in doing things because that's, that's who we were made.
Speaker B:We were made to be.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker D:Well, I just want to applaud you this book.
Speaker D:You're doing things.
Speaker D:You're putting ideas out there, doing podcasts like you're doing, doing this podcast.
Speaker D:We are change agents.
Speaker A:You encourage us in it too, man.
Speaker A:That's, you know, I think the big.
Speaker A:You can go to the Bible and you know, one of the biggest sins.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Is to sin against the Holy Spirit, you know, in general.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm taking a little bit of context, but to me, when you sin against the Spirit is that you marginalize the spirit, you know, and the minute that thing you can think, you.
Speaker A:If you really think you can offend the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:You just.
Speaker A:You just reduce everything down to normality.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, that's tragic.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I just hope our listeners.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hey, gang, you listening out there?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, maybe this is a little different through.
Speaker A:You got to think a little differently about this.
Speaker A:But I'm telling you, like John Paul's talking about all of us.
Speaker A:Strap in.
Speaker A:I mean, if you really want to ride with the Holy Spirit, you know, it's going to be the greatest ride.
Speaker C:Your life, fun journey, for sure.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker B:It's fabulous.
Speaker B:You know, it won't be an easy journey.
Speaker B:And that's where, you know, I think we need to draw on the Bible and the stories in the Bible to.
Speaker B:To empower that journey.
Speaker B:So one of my favorite stories, and it remains one of my favorite stories, is the story of Exodus, because it is not an easy story.
Speaker B:They were in a broken place in Egypt that was familiar and comfortable.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker B:Moses said, no, there's a promised land.
Speaker B:There's a better place, and God is inviting us to that promised land.
Speaker B:And they left and they went into the wilderness.
Speaker B:And if.
Speaker B:If you leave the brokenness that you have become comfortable with, you will be in the.
Speaker B:In the wilderness.
Speaker B:It's going to be hard, and you will want to go back.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:If you're drying up, you're going to want to drink again.
Speaker B:If you're leaving an abusive spouse, you're going to want to go back to your abusive spouse.
Speaker B:And if you are a nation trying to reduce your inequality between the rich and the poor, you may want to go back to the Gilded Age and pretend like everything was wonderful in the Gilded Age, which it wasn't.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:But if you persevere through the wilderness and you don't go back and you retain faith in the Promised Land, then you will get there.
Speaker B:And that's what the story tells us, and that's what the story does in our lives.
Speaker B:And I have seen people sustained by that story as they went through difficult divorces, as they pursued sobriety, as they dealt with difficult family situations, or even just, you know, the loss of a loved one and going through the grief and realizing that at some point the grief comes in waves.
Speaker B:It doesn't go away.
Speaker B:But at some point, you reach a place of acceptance and celebration of that person's life rather than being completely eaten.
Speaker A:Up by your grievement.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:When I think of that, just listening to you talk about Exodus, that story, two words came to mind.
Speaker C:Trust.
Speaker C:Encourage, you know, trust in God.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Courage to move forward.
Speaker C:Because you can't tell me they weren't scared to death.
Speaker A:Well, they want to turn around and go back.
Speaker C:But here, that's what courage is.
Speaker C:It's like you.
Speaker C:You're scared to death and you keep going.
Speaker C:You just keep taking those steps so that that's something that we can learn from.
Speaker D:You know, what came to mind is as he was speaking for me, and I want to ask you a question.
Speaker D:Is this the job of the Holy Spirit, and this is the job of your book, and is it the job of all of us who were consider ourselves thought leaders.
Speaker D:We are to comfort the afflicted.
Speaker D:But if we stop there, then we've not done the fulfillment of what we've been called to do.
Speaker D:We're also called to afflict the comfortable.
Speaker D:That's this podcast.
Speaker D:Your book is going to push against the comfort of the stagnation.
Speaker D:And that's a part of the equation.
Speaker D:Yes, those who were in pain, we're here to comfort them and to go build houses in Maine and put on roofs.
Speaker D:But we're also here to stir the pot a little bit and enter a new idea and a new thought into the equation to get us out of that stagnate.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker D:Think about that.
Speaker C:Your book speaks to that.
Speaker B:I think I agree completely.
Speaker B:If I could say something original, I think wise.
Speaker B:If you're a wise, you realize that you cannot be.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I.
Speaker B:I didn't get to read it.
Speaker A:St.
Speaker A:Here, here.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker C:I'll give it back to you again.
Speaker B:A wise person realizes that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:I just stole Stu's mug.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:But, Reverend, you're completely correct.
Speaker B:And, you know, I still think about.
Speaker B:I mean, might be a silly example, but, you know, I had growing pains when I was an adolescent, and it hurt and I didn't like it.
Speaker B:But guess what?
Speaker B:I'm really GLAD I'm not 4 foot 9.
Speaker B:No, that was heightist.
Speaker B:That was heist.
Speaker B:I apologize.
Speaker B:But, you know, taller than that.
Speaker C:So you're good.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker D:To all of our 4 Foot 9 listeners, we love you, and you're just fine the way you are.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I I do apologize.
Speaker B:But you know, growing pains produce growth and if you, if you want to live a life without growing pains, you're not going to grow and you're going to be stagnant.
Speaker B:And I don't think, you know, if you're for, if you're 40 years old, I don't think you want to die at 80 and be in the same person you are right now.
Speaker B:I think life has more to offer and I think one of the, I mean, there are all kinds of problems with aging.
Speaker B:You know, I just had bilateral knee replacement and both my knees hurt and it's been pretty miserable.
Speaker B:But there are advantages with aging as well.
Speaker B:And you become more compassionate, you become more, you have more of a long term view.
Speaker B:You can roll with the punches rather than, you know, just letting them land and then sinking to the, onto the mat.
Speaker B:And you know, I, I, I appreciate more things as I get older.
Speaker B:I see more beauty.
Speaker B:I wake up and I hear the birds singing outside my window and I'm like, I'm startled by the beauty.
Speaker B:So there are advantages to the process as well.
Speaker B:And I think if we embrace the process and we embrace growth and we're always seeking the new self to replace the old self, then that kind of the wonder of life is always increasing.
Speaker B:And then, you know, if we do that lovingly, we're inviting other people into that wonder as well and we're experiencing the wonder with other people.
Speaker B:And that it just makes it, I mean, to see beauty is wonderful.
Speaker B:To share beauty with someone you love is even more wonderful.
Speaker B:It amplifies the beauty.
Speaker B:It doesn't double it or quadruple it.
Speaker B:It's like, it's, it's like a geometric increase.
Speaker B:So let's live life that way.
Speaker B:That's, that's how God wants us to live it.
Speaker B:It's, it's beautiful.
Speaker B:It's wonderful.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Well, we call, we try to call as your book is done, you know, we try to call people to that, you know, thinking the unthinkable.
Speaker A:Right for you.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And just encouraging, but at the same time loving them in it, you know, and not trying to set ourself above that says, oh, well, but we got to figure it out.
Speaker A:But we're trying to help you get there too, you know, so, you know.
Speaker B:We'Re very, I do not have feared, I do not have it figured out, I promise.
Speaker A:Yeah, I hear you, but this has been great, you know, it's really been, believe me, we could sit here and chat forever on this kind of stuff because this Is our.
Speaker A:I mean, we.
Speaker A:We just resonate so much with you.
Speaker D:Perhaps another episode.
Speaker A:Yeah, maybe.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Might be an idea.
Speaker B:So it's been a blast.
Speaker B:I've enjoyed it, and, you know, I'm at your service.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, thank you all again.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker A:So, any final thoughts, guys?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I just want to thank you for sharing your time and your energy and your book and your.
Speaker C:Just the love you.
Speaker C:You're showing everyone, because that's.
Speaker C:That's what you.
Speaker C:That's what I got out of your book.
Speaker C:I mean, love.
Speaker D:And I want to make sure that people know where they can get the book.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:I hope that.
Speaker C:We'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker A:Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker A:We'll put the link to your bl.
Speaker A:That you.
Speaker A:That you have anything else that.
Speaker A:Contact information, stuff like that we can put in there.
Speaker A:What do you want?
Speaker B:Oh, you can put everything I sent you.
Speaker B:I'm happy to hear from anybody.
Speaker B:I can't remember what link I put to the book for sale, but I'd rather have it linked to Barnes and noble or bookseller.org.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Not Amazon.
Speaker B:I can't remember which one I sent you, but I would prefer not to patronize Amazon.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:If possible.
Speaker A:All right, we'll put.
Speaker C:We'll put the right one in there.
Speaker A:Yeah, we can do that.
Speaker A:Please do so.
Speaker B:And thanks.
Speaker B:I've enjoyed the conversation tremendously.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker A:Meet me, too.
Speaker A:It's been stimulating, I know, for me, and I think for.
Speaker A:For us here.
Speaker A:You're right in line with.
Speaker A:With who we are and what we do.
Speaker A:So, you know, hopefully we can support you in that work as well.
Speaker A:We certainly want to do that because.
Speaker A:To propagate, you know, just like we want to do for us that, you know, for your message as well and for your insight, you know.
Speaker B:Well, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm posting links to Yalls podcast on my various and sundry sites, so I hope to direct some traffic your way as well, because I really appreciate what y'all are doing.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I hope.
Speaker B:This could be a symbiotic relationship, and I think y'all are doing a great job, and to me, immensely accessible work that you're doing so well.
Speaker A:Thanks again.
Speaker A:That's without a doubt.
Speaker A:So with that, gang, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna wrap this up, as hard as that might be.
Speaker A:And again, as the Rev said, maybe there's another one coming.
Speaker A:That would be great.
Speaker A:There's all kinds of stuff to still keep talking about, but thanks for listening.
Speaker A:You know, thanks for being with us.
Speaker A:Think about this.
Speaker A:This is some really cool stuff.
Speaker A:I hope you'll listen to it again, maybe replay a little bit of it and get some nuggets out of it, as we always say.
Speaker A:So again, thanks for listening.
Speaker A:We're going to be right back with you again next week with what?
Speaker C:Another unthinkable conversation?
Speaker A:All right, gang.
Speaker A:Thanks so much.
Speaker A:Take care.
