Winning and Losing
In this episode of The Wise Guys Podcast, titled "Winning and Losing," the hosts delve into the intricate dynamics of success and failure, touching upon the very essence of what it means to win or lose in various contexts. Recorded on election night, the conversation is framed by the palpable energy of the moment, prompting reflections on the broader implications of winning and losing in our culture today. The hosts, Mac, The Rev, and Coach Stu, aim to redefine these concepts, striving for a greater understanding that transcends mere competition.
As the discussion unfolds, the hosts challenge the audience to consider the complexities surrounding the idea of winning. They embrace the notion that sometimes the ends do not justify the means, but at other times, nuanced circumstances might lead to a different conclusion. They explore how contexts—personal, political, and spiritual—affect our perspectives on winning and losing. As they engage with audience contributions, the conversation becomes a rich tapestry of insights, ensuring that every listener can find a point of connection with their own experiences.
A significant portion of the dialogue centers on the values of integrity, morality, and wisdom. How do we make choices amid moral dilemmas, especially when the stakes are high? The hosts grapple with hypothetical scenarios, touching on themes of sacrifice and ethical decision-making, while emphasizing the importance of considering the greater good. They foster a dialogue that encourages listeners to reflect on their values, urging them to discern when it is appropriate to prioritize winning and at what cost.
Intertwined with personal anecdotes and cultural references, the episode also features a segment discussing memorable and humorous church signs to lighten the mood while provoking thought. This highlights the balance the hosts seek between seriousness and levity, ensuring the conversation remains accessible and engaging.
Drawing inspiration from a range of thought-provoking quotes and cultural moments, including a powerful speech from the movie "Miracle," the hosts encapsulate the spirit of resilience and teamwork. They illuminate how mentorship, mysticism, and maverick thinking can propel individuals beyond their perceived limitations, advocating for a mindset where every experience—whether deemed a win or loss—becomes a lesson and a stepping stone toward personal growth.
Throughout the episode, a key message prevails: that the journey itself is rich with learning opportunities. Winning is not solely defined by a scoreboard; it is also about the relationships we build, the integrity we uphold, and the wisdom we glean from our experiences. In a world that often equates value with victory, The Wise Guys challenge us to rethink our notions of success and failure.
As the episode concludes, listeners are reminded of their mission, encouraging them to "go rogue" in their pursuits while remaining attuned to the ever-changing landscape of winning and losing. With an invitation to engage further, the hosts prompt everyone to reflect on how they will navigate their path, championing a more compassionate and nuanced approach to both victory and defeat.
Transcript
Well, it makes you use the wisdom.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:And you're right.
Coach Stu:Using wisdom.
Coach Stu:And you make your decision with integrity.
Rev:And morals involved in the conversation.
Coach Stu:So in doing that, then I can't really ever say the ends do not justify the means.
Coach Stu:It may be the other way, depending on the situation.
Mac:True.
Coach Stu:In that case.
Coach Stu:So this is just one of these things.
Coach Stu:As I was thinking about it, it just kind of became more complex.
Rev:Sure.
Coach Stu:I was thinking it was going to be real simple.
Rev:Oh, no.
Coach Stu:And it's not.
Rev:But percentage wise, put a percentage on that.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Rev:And when you look at people, I would say your unique perspective, your unique situation you gave is 5%, 95%.
Narrator:That's a taste of winning and losing.
Narrator:This week's episode of the Wise Guys, a podcast that unleashes the unthinkable in culture, religion, business, and everyday life.
Narrator:The guys recorded this episode on election night and offered some perspective on how we can do winning and losing better.
Narrator:So it's time to step over the line, strap in and see if you are willing to let Mac the Rev and Coach Stu take you to a place of thinking differently.
Mac:Welcome to the Wise Guys podcast, where we unleash the unthinkable and step over the line to help us see things differently.
Mac:Ha.
Mac:I think we'll even speak to your intelligence instead of acting like you don't have any.
Mac:So enjoy that tonight.
Mac:Okay?
Mac:That's what we're all about.
Mac:All right, so, hi, I'm Mac.
Mac:I'm your host in this episode.
Mac:And tonight we are recording on election night.
Mac:Think.
Mac:How about that one?
Mac:Right?
Mac:Think about the energy that's out there.
Mac:Right.
Mac:As we're attempting to talk about winning and losing.
Rev:It's going to happen.
Mac:We thought it was something.
Mac:Yeah, it's going to happen.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So we thought it was a very appropriate topic on election night to talk about that.
Mac:Now, keep in mind, you're going to notice that we aren't.
Mac:We really aren't going to talk about winning and losing in the election.
Mac:That's not at all what this episode is going to be like.
Mac:But we are going to flesh out and try to get to the bottom of why are we so deep seated in winning and losing in our culture?
Mac:And how might a more enlightened.
Mac:That's kind of a funny word for a lot of people, enlightened approach.
Mac:How can we create greater unity as we're winning and losing instead of division?
Mac:Right.
Mac:I mean, that.
Mac:That's our mission tonight.
Mac:Let's hope we.
Mac:We make it happen, guys.
Mac:But I got my wise Guys, man.
Mac:It's Stu.
Mac:Coach Stu.
Mac:Hey.
Coach Stu:Hey, how you doing, Mac?
Mac:All right, man.
Mac:Rev is here.
Rev:See you, Coach.
Rev:Good to see you, Max.
Mac:Good to see you guys.
Coach Stu:Awesome.
Coach Stu:And let me say hello to all of you beautiful, exotic cocktails out there.
Rev:Hello.
Coach Stu:I'm going to wave to you this time.
Coach Stu:If you're watching on video, I'm waving.
Rev:And you know who you are.
Coach Stu:And you know who you are.
Mac:Oh, jeez.
Mac:Gosh.
Rev:All right, they're out there.
Mac:I gotta.
Mac:I gotta have to herd the cats here tonight.
Mac:Oh, my gosh.
Mac:So, yeah, welcome, everybody.
Mac:For sure.
Mac:But hey, listen, before.
Mac:Before we get started, before we get really into it, okay, you guys, you know, we're talking about winning and losing.
Mac:Can I maybe just offer up a little prayer as we kind of get going here?
Rev:Okay, let's hear it.
Rev:Yeah, let's pray, brother.
Mac:All right.
Mac:So, you know, we want to lift up tonight, you know, the leaders that we have, you know, that are being elected tonight.
Mac:Everybody's countenance.
Mac:Everybody's, you know, just.
Mac:Just their angst, if they have it.
Mac:Whatever might be going on out there, we just want to bring some calm and some peace into this space.
Mac:And, God, let my candidate win, okay?
Mac:Oh, that's not part of everybody.
Coach Stu:Everybody heard.
Coach Stu:Everybody heard it from their own perspective.
Mac:Yeah, that's right.
Mac:That's.
Mac:That's a true.
Mac:All right, so we are.
Mac:We're going to get in.
Rev:Prayer went from purple to another color quick.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:I'm sorry.
Mac:All right.
Mac:I kind of just.
Mac:I thought that's the way it's supposed to work.
Rev:I'll pray for you.
Mac:I didn't.
Mac:I wasn't sure what was going on here, so.
Mac:All right, so the other thing we're doing this week is we're going to start something a little bit new.
Mac:I think we're going to have a little fun with this.
Mac:We want to get you guys involved in this as well.
Mac:We hope you'll have some fun with this, too.
Mac:But instead of doing what we have been doing, like the wise guy or wise crack of the day.
Mac:Okay, I'm going to.
Mac:I'm starting to coin this just signs.
Mac:I.
Mac:I might come up with something better.
Mac:I don't know.
Mac:But what we're going to do each week, we're going to take a sign, and more than likely, it's going to come from a church sign or marquee out in the front.
Mac:Right.
Rev:Those are some of the most interesting things.
Mac:Oh, boy.
Mac:Let me tell you, they are fun.
Mac:They are.
Coach Stu:I love seeing them.
Mac:They are A lot of fun.
Mac:And so we're going to put one, we're going to highlight one, we're going to chat about it a little bit.
Mac:This isn't going to be the episode.
Mac:And what we're going to talk about, it's just.
Mac:Just something to have a little fun with, but also a little perspective.
Mac:All right?
Mac:And then what we're going to do is we're.
Mac:And some of them might be, oh, golly, are you kidding me?
Mac:And we'll go from there.
Mac:Or some of them might be, Whoa, now that's really clever.
Mac:That's wise.
Mac:That's neat.
Rev:All right, or it could be both at the same time, depending on who's reading it.
Coach Stu:They're.
Coach Stu:They're all pretty clever, all the ones I've seen.
Mac:They are.
Mac:They are.
Mac:And so then what we're going to do, the three of us, we're going to vote, all right?
Mac:We're gonna.
Mac:We're gonna give it a number, all right?
Mac:We're gonna everywhere from plus three to minus three, and how we felt that, how, you know, clever it was, or catchy it was.
Mac:Or ridiculous, whatever it might be.
Mac:Okay, all right, so that we're gonna.
Mac:We're setting you guys up for this, but, you know, we're gonna have a little fun with this.
Mac:We hope you'll help us in comment and give.
Rev:Okay to give it a three for creativity and a minus three for theology.
Mac:You know what?
Coach Stu:That's good.
Mac:I'm not gonna put any rules on this thing.
Mac:Okay, it can on.
Mac:All right, so here's the first one.
Rev:All right, Bring it on.
Mac:Here it is.
Mac:All right, this is from a church.
Mac:This is a church sign.
Mac:And here's what it says.
Mac:You know what God left out of the Bible?
Mac:Your opinion.
Mac:You know what God left out of the Bible?
Mac:Your opinion.
Coach Stu:So you're driving down the road and this is what you see, right?
Mac:This is what you see.
Mac:And if you go to church there, this is certainly what this is what you're hearing.
Coach Stu:Okay, so wait, my opinion doesn't matter.
Mac:Well, there we go.
Mac:See?
Mac:Where do we go with this, guys?
Mac:Go ahead.
Mac:What do you think?
Rev:I'm just gonna say God didn't leave anything out of anything.
Rev:Mankind took all the opinions and said, mine's the only one that matters.
Rev:So I don't believe God is.
Rev:God wants that opinion.
Rev:God wants to know how you feel, how you think, what you're experiencing.
Mac:Absolutely.
Coach Stu:So he.
Coach Stu:What you're saying he wants your opinion?
Rev:She does.
Coach Stu:He or she does.
Coach Stu:It does.
Coach Stu:So let me Say, in my world, God is genderless.
Mac:There it is.
Coach Stu:And I don't think that's going to cause any lightning bolts to hit me.
Mac:Let's just say the universe.
Coach Stu:I don't think so at all.
Coach Stu:But.
Coach Stu:So.
Coach Stu:But except in the Bible, right?
Coach Stu:Well, God wants your opinion.
Coach Stu:Except if it's.
Rev:Well, because there's a bunch of people that wrote the Bible that had an opinion.
Mac:Well, that's right.
Mac:The Bible is full of opinions, right?
Coach Stu:Yeah, there's a bunch in there.
Mac:How can you say it's not?
Mac:Right.
Mac:So they're all in there.
Coach Stu:But I think, like, the way I.
Coach Stu:The way I read this is like interpretation is the word.
Coach Stu:Right?
Mac:Okay.
Coach Stu:Like your interpretation.
Coach Stu:I hear that more than I hear your opinion.
Coach Stu:So then if you think about that, it's like, well, then what?
Coach Stu:How do I figure out what it means?
Mac:Well, there you go.
Mac:Well, and I think when I'm reading what God wants.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:Absolutely.
Mac:For us to wrestle.
Coach Stu:Maybe to wrestle with it with that.
Mac:You know, when I read that sign, my first inclination kind of was, oh, here we go again.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:You know, but the second one was, of course.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:That my opinion isn't in the Bible.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:You know, per se.
Mac:Oh, this is what Larry McDonald said.
Mac:You know, here's what Max said.
Mac:All right.
Mac:But the beauty of it is that it's a living document.
Mac:I mean, the thing is not static for all time.
Mac:And so, golly, I think what God.
Mac:Absolutely.
Mac:Like the Rev was saying, what God wants us to do is go, well, here's what I think about that.
Rev:Digest this, drink, interpret it, spend time with it, wrestle with it, whatever it is.
Rev:I think if you don't allow it to be overlaid with your spirit and your mind and your heart, you're missing the great value of what can be in that book.
Mac:Oh, I totally, totally agree.
Mac:It's in the interaction.
Rev:It's my unique interpretation.
Rev:How is this story alive in me today?
Mac:Right, Right.
Coach Stu:So vitally important that I like.
Mac:Yeah, yeah.
Mac:And I get an opinion about that.
Mac:Let's talk about that.
Rev:Yeah.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:I mean, it's separate and apart from my opinion being in it.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:I mean, you know, it comes from it.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So.
Mac:So anyway, we just had a little fun.
Mac:All right.
Mac:So now there's the opinion of the.
Coach Stu:Well, I got.
Coach Stu:I gotta say real.
Coach Stu:I gotta say real quick.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:That I'm less famously known as John.
Coach Stu:So I do have a lot of opinions in the Bible.
Mac:Oh, gosh.
Mac:Oh, you're setting yourself.
Coach Stu:Let me go back to being coached.
Mac:I don't think I want that tall company there, bro.
Coach Stu:I don't remember.
Rev:For the Book of Mac.
Rev:It's somewhere in the Older Testament, but I don't know where it is.
Mac:Oh, it's in there.
Mac:Oh, yeah.
Mac:I think it got taken out by.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:The Council and I see.
Mac:I think it's considered a gnostic book.
Coach Stu:Okay, that was good.
Rev:King James.
Coach Stu:I like it.
Rev:The Book of Mac does not belong in this one.
Mac:Yeah, I could see that happening.
Coach Stu:A Big Mac, maybe.
Mac:So here we go.
Mac:We gotta vote, guys.
Mac:What number are you gonna give it, Stu?
Mac:What number you gonna give?
Coach Stu:So tell me how I interpret the numbers again real quick.
Mac:So a plus three is a.
Mac:Whoa.
Mac:Awesome.
Mac:A minus three is.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:How could anybody put that out there for anybody read?
Coach Stu:I'm not going to go to either extreme.
Coach Stu:Probably anytime I do A rating.
Mac:All right.
Coach Stu:Just.
Coach Stu:Just gonna put that out there right now.
Coach Stu:So I'm not going to negative three.
Coach Stu:I'm not going up a positive three, but I'll do.
Coach Stu:Yeah, well, because that's.
Coach Stu:I, you know, I don't know.
Coach Stu:A whole nother conversation for another episode.
Coach Stu:Right, right.
Mac:Okay.
Coach Stu:But I'm gonna say.
Coach Stu:I'm gonna say it's a one.
Mac:A one.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:All right.
Coach Stu:I'm gonna give it a one.
Mac:We'll take your one.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:All right, Rev, what do you think, man?
Rev:You know, I'm gonna give a rock solid, emphatic, enthusiastic zero.
Coach Stu:I knew you were gonna say that.
Coach Stu:A zero.
Rev:I don't really care one way or another.
Coach Stu:The setup gave it away.
Rev:Maybe I'll give it a point four because it made me think a little.
Mac:Oh, gosh.
Mac:Wow, guys.
Mac:Okay, then, you know, me and my little mavericky, you know, I move to the extremes more than you guys do.
Mac:So I'm actually gonna give this a plus two.
Mac:All right.
Mac:And again, the reason is, I think there's a really good nugget in there, if you don't interpret it, that says.
Mac:And you don't be a opinionated, you know, don't be opinionated.
Mac:Anyway, so there we go.
Mac:Some fun.
Coach Stu:Very good.
Mac:So, anyway, have some fun with it, guys.
Mac:I hope you'll let us know what you think about that.
Mac:Okay, so let's move on.
Mac:We're going to start to get into this whole idea about winning and losing.
Mac:And I thought this was a really interesting.
Mac:I heard this a while back, and I'm going to say, first of all, you.
Mac:You have.
Mac:The first thing is going to be, who is this?
Mac:Okay.
Mac:Because I didn't tell neither one of The.
Mac:My wise guys know what?
Mac:I'm going to get ready to play here.
Rev:Surprises.
Mac:Yeah, I'm surprised.
Mac:Okay, so.
Mac:So there we go.
Mac:So here, let's.
Mac:Let's just listen to this and see if we can.
Mac:See if we can process this a little bit.
Mac:If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed.
Mac:If you do read it, you're misinformed.
Mac:What do you do?
Mac:That's a great question.
Mac:What is the long term effect of too much information?
Mac:One of the effects is the need to be first.
Mac:Not even to be true anymore.
Mac:So what a responsibility you all have to be to tell the truth.
Mac:Not just to be first, but to tell the truth.
Mac:We live in a society now where it's just first.
Mac:Who cares?
Mac:Get it out there.
Mac:We don't care who it hurts.
Mac:We don't care who we destroy.
Mac:We don't care if it's true.
Mac:Just say it, Sell it.
Mac:Anything you practice, you'll get good at.
Mac:Include including bs.
Mac:All right.
Coach Stu:I thought I knew it at first.
Coach Stu:I had to pull my hand back down.
Rev:Oh, that's Denzel Washington.
Mac:Absolutely.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:Yeah.
Rev:Football movie.
Rev:Right?
Mac:It's Denzel.
Mac:They were just interviewing him.
Rev:Oh, they were.
Mac:He was just doing an interview with.
Coach Stu:Some people that was like a real life interview.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:That wasn't in a movie.
Mac:No.
Rev:That guy is brilliant.
Rev:He says.
Mac:Oh, I know.
Coach Stu:He's interesting.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Okay, so what do you think?
Mac:What do you think about what he said?
Mac:What can we.
Mac:What can we glean from this to have a jumping off point?
Mac:Because I really think he was.
Mac:He transitioned.
Mac:Well, you know, as he was talking about what he was talking about, what do you think what struck me?
Rev:I always think that the quest for truth.
Rev:Everybody wins when you do that, you know?
Rev:And is winning just the ultimate?
Rev:With no truth or no growth, no evolution?
Rev:I don't think it's worth it.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:It's the quest for truth.
Rev:And are you just espousing BS to get ahead?
Mac:Right.
Rev:Lies have gotten a lot of people to the top of the mountain and they've won, but there's no truth there.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:So it's.
Rev:To me, it's.
Rev:It's a false doctrine.
Mac:So good advice then, what he said.
Rev:Oh, absolutely.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mac:Okay.
Rev:I give it a solid three.
Coach Stu:A solid three.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:Good.
Mac:I got you off the zero.
Coach Stu:That's good, that's good, that's good.
Coach Stu:You know, as life goes, like, I totally checked out.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:I don't even remember what he said.
Coach Stu:I'm being honest.
Coach Stu:I I was listening to try to tell who it was.
Coach Stu:And so I missed, like, what he said.
Coach Stu:I'm just being completely honest.
Coach Stu:I know this blows up the episode.
Rev:But I'm like, ding, ding, ding.
Rev:Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner because he's honest.
Mac:This happens.
Mac:We got to start over now.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:This happens to people.
Mac:Well, so what.
Mac:What he was talking about was this.
Coach Stu:That with the Rev said, it's just all about winning.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:And really, it doesn't matter.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:How you win.
Coach Stu:And that's what he was saying.
Mac:That's right.
Coach Stu:It doesn't matter how you win.
Mac:Well, he's just saying these days, now, the way the culture is running, it's just say anything.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:You just say anything just so you can win.
Coach Stu:You can win.
Rev:Well, you know, and that's absolutely been my conversation.
Rev:I don't want to go to politics, but the end does not justify the means for me.
Rev:I have close friends that say, oh, absolutely, if I get the win at the end.
Rev:And it does justify it, no matter how you get there.
Mac:Yep.
Coach Stu:So you brought this up, and this is one of our bullet points.
Coach Stu:The end justify the means.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:And so I have a question for you with that.
Coach Stu:Let me give you an upper end.
Mac:He's asking you this.
Rev:Okay.
Coach Stu:So if you knew by lying and cheating you could save somebody's life, you're saying you wouldn't do it.
Coach Stu:You could save your wife's life by lying and cheating.
Coach Stu:I was thinking a lot about this because I knew this was gonna.
Coach Stu:I knew you were gonna say this.
Coach Stu:And so crawling into my mind a lot lately, I just.
Coach Stu:I wanted to give it some thought to see, like, okay, why.
Coach Stu:Why is that so important to the Rev?
Coach Stu:Like, I really.
Coach Stu:And I hope Rogers out there do this.
Coach Stu:Like, this is something important to you.
Coach Stu:You say you said it a lot, and so I'm like, okay, let me try.
Coach Stu:But then I was thinking, how do I reconcile that?
Coach Stu:Because I'll just answer for me.
Coach Stu:Like, if I had to be, like, less than honest to save my daughter or my wife, like, I would do it.
Coach Stu:Like, I would.
Coach Stu:I would sacrifice that.
Coach Stu:I can't even look at it like that.
Coach Stu:I'm looking at.
Coach Stu:I'm protecting my family, somebody I care and love about.
Coach Stu:So that is, do the ends justify the means in that case, for me, it does, because I want my.
Coach Stu:My.
Coach Stu:I want my wife and daughter to be here.
Rev:So does the equation get a little more complicated when it's life and death?
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Rev:Or is it good consequences, bad consequences?
Rev:That's different.
Coach Stu:You, you can come down to.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Something that's not as dramatic as life.
Rev:Well, you know, it's the oldest silly thing you used to do as a kid and it got me in a lot of trouble.
Rev:You got six of your closest friends in a boat and you got to throw somebody out of the boat or you're all going to drown.
Rev:Who do you sacrifice?
Mac:Wow.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:You know, it's somebody else going to get hurt to save my wife's life.
Rev:Is somebody else going to die?
Rev:I won't, I won't lie and cheat.
Rev:Well, I will do my best to throw myself in the line of fire.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:So what it made me realize in this, in thinking about like winning and losing is that particular phrase.
Coach Stu:Ends doesn't justify the means is way more complicated.
Coach Stu:It's not just as a simple.
Coach Stu:Of course it doesn't.
Mac:Right, right, right.
Coach Stu:You've got to be, you know, you got to be.
Coach Stu:You can go down the value, you know, ethics, you can go down the whole gamut of, of why you would want to be a better person.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:But I mean like what I, what I gave you is, could be a real scenario, you know, that asking that question.
Coach Stu:So it's more complicated than the exception.
Rev:If I'm gonna maybe, you know, fix a game that a wrestling match and I'm betting thousands of dollars that you're going to, you're going to lose, then I going to fix the game.
Rev:I lied and cheated.
Coach Stu:Right.
Rev:But I won.
Mac:I think what we're saying here is there's nuances and we always love to have certainty about stuff.
Mac:It's this way and no other way.
Mac:You know, a lot of the times it's easier.
Mac:And I think we have to admit with something like this that there's way too many nuances and scenarios that.
Mac:What do we talk about all the time?
Mac:We talk about gaining wisdom, we talk about higher consciousness.
Mac:And so if you begin to apply these things instead of knee jerk emotion, things that just don't rationally and make sense and that you're all off, you know, all over the map.
Mac:Over.
Mac:Then I think in whatever situation you get in, if you're confident enough in that, then you'll do it.
Mac:Right.
Mac:I don't, you know, but I look.
Rev:At great martyrs throughout time.
Rev:I'm kind of going on a bunny trail here.
Coach Stu:Well, this is what we're talking about.
Rev:So many people that were at the edge of a knife saying, denounce your religion.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:Denounce your spirituality right now.
Rev:And you live.
Rev:Don't.
Rev:And thus Lie, you know, you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose your life.
Rev:And heroes.
Rev:I have to say, if it was my life, I would, I would not denounce my belief system or denounce somebody else.
Rev:Okay, take, go ahead and cut my head off because I won't do that.
Coach Stu:When you make it somebody else's, though, that you care about, it becomes an entirely different.
Rev:I'll tell you whatever you want if you're going to go after my daughter.
Mac:Yeah, right.
Coach Stu:Well, somebody that says.
Coach Stu:Because I know, again, I know this is part of.
Coach Stu:I know this is one of the bullet points.
Mac:Sure.
Coach Stu:Somebody that says the ends justifies the means, like that's what they believe.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:They're looking to maximize, as I thought about this, to maximize overall happiness and minimize suffering.
Coach Stu:So it's almost like what's the greater good?
Coach Stu:So now you have to define what's the greater good?
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:And looking at something like that, so.
Mac:Well, yeah, everybody's running it through their own worldview too.
Mac:You know, that kind of stuff.
Rev:Lying, cheating, stealing.
Rev:Let's go to the Ten Commandments, murder.
Rev:I'm sorry, I'm going to draw the line there.
Rev:I don't care if I gain something at the end of that or not it's, or if there's a greater good for a group of people, another group is excluded from that.
Rev:I cannot support that kind of behavior in any scenario.
Mac:Well, I think what we're trying to do is maybe just let's not, let's not throw the card.
Mac:Let's just not throw that card on whatever the situation is and think that it's that simple, that easy.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:Now let's move on.
Coach Stu:So in thinking about this, there were different descriptions of different types of people that have various beliefs in this regard.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:So I think where I ended up is what I learned is called pragmatic or situation, situational perspective.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:So basically you assess each situation on a case by case basis and you make your decision.
Mac:Use the wisdom.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:And you're right.
Coach Stu:Using wisdom.
Coach Stu:And you make your decision with integrity.
Rev:And morals involved in the conversation.
Coach Stu:So in doing that, then I can't really ever say the ends do not justify the means because it may, it may be the other way depending on the situation.
Mac:True.
Coach Stu:In that case.
Coach Stu:So this is, this is just one of these things.
Coach Stu:As I was thinking about it, it just kind of became more complex.
Rev:Sure.
Coach Stu:I was thinking it was going to be real simple.
Rev:Oh, no.
Coach Stu:And it's not.
Rev:But percentage wise, put a percentage on that.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Rev:And when you look at your life.
Rev:I would say your unique perspective, your unique situation you gave is 5%.
Rev:Yeah, 95.
Rev:And I'm going to hope.
Coach Stu:Right.
Rev:I'm going to be there.
Rev:This guy says you 95% of the time.
Rev:The end does not justify the means.
Rev:That 5% or that 2%.
Rev:Yep.
Rev:You got to give yourself the openness to that.
Coach Stu:And I'm so thankful and grateful that that's your life experiences.
Coach Stu:Some people don't have those.
Coach Stu:Some people, the five percents the other way because.
Rev:Exactly.
Coach Stu:Because of their life.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:And they're.
Coach Stu:And how they're living and what's going on for them.
Coach Stu:So.
Rev:And you're right.
Rev:And let's just throw it out there.
Rev:And sometimes it's a grand excuse to not be moral integrity.
Coach Stu:It could.
Rev:To tell the truth or to be a good person.
Coach Stu:It could be because it is.
Rev:I, I win.
Rev:The collective good doesn't, but I win all the above.
Mac:I mean, again, it's a dance.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:It's a nuance.
Mac:I think the thing that challenge for all of us is again, I think is just don't default.
Mac:And that's the way it is.
Mac:You know, I mean there's thought that needs to bring into this thing.
Mac:There's the heart, there's your spirit.
Mac:You know, there's those other things that come into this whole decision making process.
Mac:So.
Mac:All right, so with that I put a Bible verse in and I thought we could start because, you know, you read the Old Testament especially, and there's lots of battles and there's lots of people that win and lots of people that lose.
Mac:And you know, that kind of culture and that scenario in those stories, but this one came out of the New Testament.
Mac:It comes out of second Timothy.
Mac:And this is Paul talking to Timothy, all right, in a letter.
Mac:And he just says, for I am already being poured out like a drink offering and the time for my departure is near.
Mac:I have fought the good fight.
Mac:I have finished the race.
Mac:I have kept the faith.
Mac:And again, he knows he's locked up in Rome and he's seeing the end here.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:But what was interesting to me in this verse was this, that he personally can say, I fought the good fight.
Mac:I've done it.
Mac:I've done what I need to do and what I'm called to do, but it had absolutely nothing.
Mac:He ran the race and he fought the fight.
Mac:There's other places he says we run the race, but it's not at anybody else's expense.
Mac:It's not like he climbed over somebody else in order to be able to do this or that.
Mac:You know, he left a whole bunch of tragic stuff in his wake and stuff like that.
Mac:And so now, you know, he gets to raise his arms in victory.
Mac:I just think he said, look, I was in my race, I was doing what God called me to do.
Mac:I was trying to be faithful, and I won.
Mac:You know, if I can put those words sort of, you know, in quotes.
Mac:Right.
Mac:I just loved it, that's all.
Mac:That's where I was coming from on that.
Mac:What do you guys think?
Mac:Does that make sense?
Rev:Of course it makes sense.
Rev:You know, it's the effort, it's the doing the best that I can, win or lose that I was kind.
Rev:I tried to espouse something good and holy.
Rev:The world's a better place because I lived and I was here.
Mac:Right.
Rev:You know, and I think that's a good thing.
Rev:And I want to be at the end of my life being able to say those kinds of things.
Rev:I did the very best I can.
Rev:You know, there's a quote by Hunter Thompson, I pulled up here.
Rev:That seems appropriate.
Rev:Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride.
Rev:Doesn't mean I won, doesn't mean I lost.
Rev:I mean, I gave my all to the game.
Mac:I fought the good fight.
Mac:Yeah, that's good.
Coach Stu:That's good.
Coach Stu:I like that.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:What I got from this, I was looking at it from a coaching perspective, is he.
Coach Stu:He was able to define what a win was for him.
Mac:Yeah, true.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:And it may not have looked the same way that somebody else might be looking at.
Mac:Yeah, that's a great.
Coach Stu:Same thing happens for me, like, for a win for me with one of my wrestlers, may not be that they scored more points or pinned the guy.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:It might be that they wrestled the whole match.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:That was a win.
Coach Stu:Or they executed a move that we had been working on and they finally got it.
Coach Stu:Like, that is, to me, that is a win.
Mac:Absolutely.
Rev:I love the coaches playing sports that said, you did better today than you did yesterday.
Rev:You didn't win the game, but you did better.
Rev:There's improvement.
Rev:Good on you.
Rev:Right.
Coach Stu:So that's a win.
Mac:Yeah, to me.
Mac:Yep.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:And, you know, again, we don't.
Mac:We're going to talk a little bit about this in the, in the second half, but, you know, what we don't want to do is make it out like there can't be joy and satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment when you win.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:I mean, winning is not a bad thing.
Mac:No, it's a great in general.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:So, you know, we don't want to take that component out of here, but at the same time, how we do it, how we react on both sides of the equation, that's what we really want to talk about in this episode.
Rev:So, yeah, I want to be real clear.
Rev:Getting everybody a trophy, a participation trophy.
Rev:No, I'm very competitive.
Rev:I like to win.
Rev:I want to win.
Rev:And I feel good when I win.
Mac:Absolutely.
Rev:But not at the cost of belittling the person who didn't win that match.
Mac:Well, there's.
Mac:There's a big message that.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Without a doubt.
Mac:I think there's a nugget right, right there.
Coach Stu:Yeah, that's it.
Rev:So my great mind is going to.
Rev:Going back to the scenario is I was able to tell the truth and save my wife's life all at the same time.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:I did the very best I could and I had success or I didn't.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Well, again, so nuanced all across the board.
Mac:But what's going on in here?
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:What's going on in a heart?
Mac:You know, what are you motivated by all that kind of stuff?
Mac:So here was a cultural thing that I've heard in its different forms a lot.
Mac:How does this frame our culture?
Mac:There's no points for second place.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:And so now what happens when that gets said?
Mac:Right.
Mac:The effort that the other team, or teams, depending upon what you're doing here, is a one on one competition or, you know, round robin, whatever.
Mac:Point being is that there's no value unless you are number one.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:You know what?
Rev:I would love to win a silver medal in the Olympics.
Rev:I would feel really good about that.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:I don't know.
Rev:I think coming in second is pretty, pretty darn amazing.
Mac:Well, I mean, there was a whole lot of effort that went in and sometimes it's tenths of a second or this or that or half an inch or whatever it might be.
Coach Stu:This really hit home for me because you're right, you're encouraging people to.
Coach Stu:To strive for first place and anything outside of that is failure.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Like that's how you're looking at it.
Coach Stu:Right, right, right.
Coach Stu:So it reminded me now, I don't look at it this way, but even though I don't look at it this way, I still have said these words.
Coach Stu:I'm going to call myself out.
Coach Stu:I still have said to my.
Coach Stu:To my.
Coach Stu:I'm not going to Say the whole team may have said this to the whole team.
Mac:All right.
Coach Stu:I would rather place third than second.
Coach Stu:You know why?
Coach Stu:Because when I placed third, I wonder when I play second, I lost.
Mac:Oh, so.
Coach Stu:And they're like, we talking about coach.
Coach Stu:So.
Coach Stu:And.
Coach Stu:And I'm not saying that is necessarily good.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:But it's a perspective.
Coach Stu:And I.
Coach Stu:It's just kind of so.
Coach Stu:So the way I.
Coach Stu:So what I.
Coach Stu:What I got myself to was this.
Coach Stu:Instead of saying wins and losses, because I'm all about, like, words matter.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:All right.
Coach Stu:So when I'm talking to my team, I say, look, you either win or we learn.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:I don't say win or lose.
Coach Stu:That'll preach like, yeah, or we learn.
Coach Stu:Because a loss, there's a lot of learning.
Mac:Oh, sure.
Coach Stu:I mean, a ton of it.
Coach Stu:We can go.
Coach Stu:I mean, whole episode on that.
Rev:My dad.
Rev:My dad pulled me aside every time and he said, you know, there's always going to be somebody better than you.
Rev:You'll never be number one because there's somebody who can beat you.
Rev:He says, go surround yourself with the people who will put you in second place.
Rev:Go surround yourself with the people who are better than you.
Rev:And then you improve, you learn, you grow, you stretch, you become.
Rev:Occasionally you're going to get.
Rev:You're going to beat that guy.
Rev:But most of the time, go ahead and lose because you become a better bowler, a better ping pong player, whatever it was that he was teaching.
Coach Stu:That's fun.
Mac:Well, you know, it's.
Mac:Again, what are we talking about here?
Mac:We're talking about perspective, all right?
Mac:More than anything else.
Mac:It's just that how are you.
Mac:How are we looking at that competition, that event that whatever it might be, all right?
Mac:And what we're trying to get in and out of this conversation is let's weave in some wiggle room, first of all, and let's weave in some perspective that maybe isn't as conventional as you might think, because it's not that these aren't good things.
Mac:It's just that when you focus on them exclusively, they tend to just get you myopic, you know, and you lose sight of the bigger picture.
Mac:And I guess that that was one of my points here, that you have different kinds of winning, and we're talking about that already, Right.
Mac:At the same time, when you talk about winning, going to Vegas, right, You may win some hands, you may win, you know, that night, whatever it might be.
Mac:But as an example, the house is going to win in the long run.
Coach Stu:That's the truth.
Rev:You Got to know when to fold them.
Mac:I mean, you got to understand that you can't get myopic about any of this.
Mac:There's a much greater arc to your life, to that team, to the experience, whatever it might be.
Mac:And if you don't think about that, then a, you get frustrated, you get.
Mac:You get angry.
Mac:You don't become a very good loser at that point.
Mac:You don't know how to handle yourself in that.
Mac:And a lot of times you don't know how to win well either because you're just thinking about this time right here, right now, and it doesn't fit into the bigger picture.
Mac:So I think you just got to watch out for that.
Mac:You know, you just got to be conscious of it.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:The other thing to remember about is, in most sports, I didn't grow up this way.
Mac:But nowadays, maybe you guys can help me with this.
Mac:But I try to think of a situation in a sporting event where you can have a tie.
Coach Stu:Soccer, soccer.
Coach Stu:They have ties all the time in soccer.
Mac:So soccer has ties, but most of the things have been.
Mac:That's been eliminated.
Coach Stu:I don't know of any other sport that has.
Mac:That's what I'm saying.
Mac:They used to.
Coach Stu:But they literally will finish a competition in a tie, right?
Mac:Yeah, right.
Rev:But that's, you know, I know there are a lot of pickleball players out there.
Rev:My favorite game of pickleball, you know, it ends at a certain number.
Rev:My favorite game I ever played, the score was 29 to 27.
Rev:It went on and on and on.
Rev:I love overtime.
Coach Stu:I love overtime.
Mac:But somebody's going to win.
Mac:And typically, we've gone to that place more than we used to.
Mac:We used to say, well, we tied.
Mac:Everybody gave the best effort that they could, and, you know, it goes up on the scoreboard.
Mac:Tie.
Mac:You know, again, that's a change in our cultural thinking.
Mac:And again, I think it's a change in entertainment and all that other kind of stuff.
Mac:But again, what.
Mac:It's suddenly subtly taught and caught that, you know, sorry, there's gotta be somebody that wins.
Rev:I don't know how that would work on a wrestling mat.
Rev:Two guys tied in a knot and they're in a standstill.
Mac:No, we go.
Coach Stu:We have over three different types of overtime.
Coach Stu:The last one is called Ultimate Ride Out.
Coach Stu:And that sounds cool.
Rev:The ultimate ride.
Coach Stu:Somebody wins in that scenario.
Mac:Well, you know, we're talking about how to deal with winning and losing.
Mac:But there's.
Mac:There's the heady, cultural, rational, normal.
Mac:I got 10, you got eight.
Mac:You know, you know, and that's all part of it.
Mac:But there's also.
Mac:And we talk about this on this podcast all the time, guys.
Mac:There's the spiritual component as well.
Mac:When you start to enter into these matches, these competitions, this more or less, you know, and so we certainly don't want to ignore or put aside, oh, well, this is sports.
Mac:This is.
Mac:This.
Mac:This is a competition.
Mac:These are grades.
Mac:This is what.
Mac:Whatever you want to put in that equation.
Mac:It doesn't really have anything to do with spirituality.
Mac:Sorry.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:We're just dealing with this now.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Which couldn't be further from the truth, as far as I think we're concerned.
Mac:So, you know, how do you apply spirituality to winning and losing?
Mac:Maybe we'll end this.
Mac:We'll take a break after we kind of flesh this out a little bit.
Mac:What do you think?
Mac:How do we apply spirituality to the ideas of winning and losing?
Coach Stu:Well, there's a concept called spiritual poise.
Coach Stu:When you're talking about spirituality, and it allows a person to.
Coach Stu:Basically, the way I.
Coach Stu:The way I see spiritual poise is it allows a person to remain composed and steady in the face of, like, ups and downs in the competition, you know, you have a poise about you.
Coach Stu:You could have.
Coach Stu:In my sport, you could have somebody pushing the limits of illegality in their moves, and they might get cautioned for it, even.
Coach Stu:And it could all be.
Coach Stu:It could all throw you off if you don't have poise, you know?
Coach Stu:Know, like, I've seen people hit bloodied nose, a headbutted.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:And they might get cautioned, and then you either react to that or you don't, you know, so think about it.
Coach Stu:Who always gets in trouble when I.
Coach Stu:I do something to you and then you retaliate, gets in trouble in the.
Mac:Yeah, right.
Coach Stu:In the competition, it's always a retaliate.
Mac:The last one scene.
Coach Stu:But if you have spiritual boys, if you're able to calm that and.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:Just kind of move on from there.
Coach Stu:I think it's, you know, an inner peace, a balance, like, you know, to me that's like, grounded in, like, your faith and your values and can I.
Rev:Be the same person, the same grounded, anchored, focused, spiritually centric person whether I win or whether I lose, Whether.
Rev:If your behavior.
Rev:If your behavior or your winning changes who I am, then I've given all my power to this earthly kingdom.
Coach Stu:Right.
Rev:And not to the God essence of me.
Rev:Not easy work, but, boy, it's a lifetime course, but, man, is it amazing.
Rev:I lost, but I still feel good about who I Am I won?
Rev:I still feel good about who you are because I treat people a certain way.
Mac:I love that.
Mac:Wasn't that great?
Mac:I won and I feel good about you.
Rev:You did great.
Rev:I love the MMA matches where the two guys are going at it and then they hug each other at the end.
Rev:It's like, man, that was amazing.
Rev:That was an event.
Mac:And the cool thing is this speaks to something we talk about.
Mac:Rev, you talk about this all the time about doing the work.
Mac:So does Coach do, if you haven't done the work ahead of time, that it's very difficult to be poised in these situations.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So there has to be a whole process, a whole lifestyle, a whole commitment that you have to start to make, that you will start to see different outcomes over time.
Rev:Let's be real honest.
Rev:I've done the work, but I got a lot of work to do because there are moments where I lose my cool.
Mac:Oh, not me.
Rev:Take the minister hat off.
Rev:And now the competitive half is in the ring.
Mac:And it's like, that's why I said, you want to play pickleball with him?
Mac:Okay.
Coach Stu:Oh, yeah.
Mac:All right, well, look, great conversations for this part.
Mac:And what we're going to do the second half is we're going to play a little.
Mac:We're going to play another little clip, and it's one of my absolute favorites.
Mac:And then we're going to play off of it when it comes to applying a little maverick mystic and mentorship to what's going on in this clip.
Mac:So thanks for listening.
Mac:We'll be right back.
Mac:We're going to take a break, like.
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Narrator:Now, let's get back to our Wise Guys.
Mac:Okay, welcome back to the Wise Guys podcast.
Mac:And we've been talking in this episode about winning and losing.
Mac:And again, we've mentioned that we're recording this episode on the Tuesday night of the election.
Mac:So we thought it was really appropriate to kind of just press in a little bit to what winning and losing in the bigger sense, it might look like if we start to have a little higher consciousness applied to it.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:Can I comment about this?
Coach Stu:I know we're not talking about the election, but you know, what's really cool is there's a whole energy going on right now around the United States of winning and losing.
Coach Stu:Because it's not just president.
Coach Stu:There's a lot of races.
Mac:Oh, no, I think every single.
Mac:I mean, I think the whole House is all up for the House, Senate.
Coach Stu:I mean, there's governors.
Coach Stu:There's a lot of people tonight that are either winning or losing.
Mac:True.
Coach Stu:And, and.
Coach Stu:And everything we're talking about, they're going to be dealing with this.
Coach Stu:Right?
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:And them and everybody else as well.
Coach Stu:Everybody that is invested in wanting.
Coach Stu:I have my person.
Coach Stu:I want them to win.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:Or my party or whatever.
Coach Stu:However you think about it.
Mac:Yeah, exactly.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:No, it's.
Coach Stu:There's just an energy going on, which I think is really cool that we're doing this amidst all the energy.
Rev:I'm just more concerned that whoever my wife wants to win, win because my household will be more people.
Coach Stu:We want happy.
Coach Stu:Happy.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Happy wife.
Rev:That's what we want.
Mac:Happy wife.
Coach Stu:Okay.
Mac:Oh, my gosh.
Mac:All right, so I'm going to play this clip.
Mac:And again, to me, I've, I've.
Mac:I've heard this thing dozens of times.
Mac:And you're.
Mac:If you recognize it, you'll under.
Mac:Probably understand why, but I'm going to elaborate on it.
Mac:But we're going to just play it and then we're going to pull some.
Mac:The truth out of it.
Mac:And I think it's going to be beautiful.
Mac:So I'm excited about it.
Mac:So everybody just listen up.
Mac:Here we go.
Mac:Great moments are born from great opportunity.
Mac:And that's what you have here tonight, boys.
Mac:That's what you've earned here tonight.
Coach Stu:One game.
Mac:If we played them 10 times, they might win nine.
Mac:But not this game.
Mac:Not.
Mac:Not tonight.
Mac:Tonight we skate with them.
Mac:Tonight we stay with them and we shut them down because we can.
Mac:Tonight, we are the greatest hockey team in the world.
Mac:You were born to be hockey players, every one of you.
Mac:And you were meant to be here tonight.
Mac:This is your time.
Mac:Their time is done.
Mac:It's over.
Mac:I'm sick and tired of hearing about what a great hockey team the Soviets have.
Mac:Screw.
Mac:This is your time.
Mac:Now go out there and take it.
Coach Stu:Let's go.
Coach Stu:I'm ready.
Mac:There we are.
Coach Stu:I'm standing up.
Coach Stu:I'm ready to go.
Mac:That's right, Stu.
Mac:We got Stubell pumped up here.
Mac:All right?
Coach Stu:I gotta make these speeches, so when I hear a good one, it's like, come on.
Mac:I hear you.
Mac:There it is.
Mac:That's a great example.
Mac:Okay, so who was that?
Mac:Come on.
Mac:Guy.
Coach Stu:Kurt Russ from Miracle.
Rev:Yeah.
Mac:Kurt Russell from Miracle.
Mac:Kurt Russell.
Mac:He was playing what part?
Coach Stu:He was Herb.
Coach Stu:Herb Brooks.
Mac:Herb Brooks who coached the USC.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac: The: Mac:olympic team.
Mac:The hockey team.
Coach Stu:That was awesome.
Coach Stu:What a great movie.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:So here we are, we got him giving this unbelievable speech to the team.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So many unbelievable things that again, it wasn't like.
Mac:I mean, you can watch some of the older movies and the Newt Rockney thing, or you, Vince Lombardi or whoever might come to your mind of great, you know, locker room speeches.
Mac:There's tons of them.
Mac:So we just did this one because it happens to be my thing.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:So I love the hockey.
Mac:All right, so here we are.
Mac:Let's try to apply what we just heard, some of those nuggets out of that.
Mac:What.
Mac:What Stucks out, sticks out at us from a Mavericks perspective.
Mac:Where do we see the Maverick in what.
Mac:What Coach Brooks is talking to these guys about?
Coach Stu:Well, I know what I.
Coach Stu:What you didn't hear is.
Coach Stu:Is this word.
Coach Stu:We're the underdogs.
Coach Stu:But they were the underdogs.
Coach Stu:But they don't care.
Coach Stu:Coach doesn't care.
Coach Stu:It's like, I don't care.
Coach Stu:They beat us nine out of 10.
Coach Stu:He could have said 99 out of 100.
Coach Stu:It doesn't matter, because there's this one game tonight we're playing right now, and I don't care what anybody says, especially what people out there say, we're going to go out there and play this game and beat these guys.
Coach Stu:That's a maverick right there.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:I'm defying the odds of what?
Coach Stu:I don't care if nobody believes in us.
Coach Stu:We believe in us.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:And as a coach, I would have said, look, if you're.
Coach Stu:If you're doubting this, I have enough belief for all of you.
Coach Stu:Let's go.
Mac:Well, I think what you're saying is if you were.
Mac:If you were in the other locker room.
Mac:Yeah, right.
Mac:If you were in the Russians locker room.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:I wouldn't be there, by the way.
Coach Stu:Just want to point that out.
Mac:No.
Mac:Okay, I understand.
Mac:So probably what you heard in that locker room was, these guys are nothing.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:We've been here before.
Mac:We're the best.
Mac:And so there's no humility.
Mac:There's nothing, you know, taking it for granted.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:Well, let me take the other side of that equation.
Rev:I don't know what's in the other locker room.
Rev:And we make up stories about our opponent.
Rev:What the Maverick does is, I know who we are.
Rev:I know who you are.
Rev:And that's all that matters tonight.
Rev:I don't like the line when he says, screw the Soviets.
Rev:Yeah, now we got a game.
Rev:It works in a game, a hockey game, but I'm telling you, screw the Soviets.
Rev:Doesn't work on the grand scheme when it's not a game and there's life at expense.
Rev:There's the possibility of life.
Rev:Now I'm making it bigger than it is, but the Maverick is showing.
Rev:I just know who we are, and we're going to give the very best of who we have to bring to this game right now.
Mac:I think that's an altruistic Maverick.
Mac:I think.
Mac:I think the Maverick, a lot of times, me, me, Maverick says, screw them.
Mac:Okay?
Mac:There's no doubt about that.
Mac:Okay, I'm going to pump my guys up.
Mac:But I can see where you're coming from, Rev.
Mac:Where, you know, it might create.
Mac:Now it adds to that whole Cold War, you know, kind of thing and all of that.
Mac:I don't know.
Mac:I think there's an edge in there to try to work the guys up and get them pumped up.
Mac:I guess I'm not going to necessarily fault him for that.
Rev:It works great in a hockey game, on the wrestling match.
Rev:It works great in a baseball game.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:I draw the line of the Maverick saying, screw the Russians, I won.
Rev:Bang, you're dead.
Rev:We win.
Rev:We win.
Mac:Yeah, yeah, I got you.
Mac:I hear that.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:I'll go along with that.
Rev:You know, I just paint it forward.
Rev:It got stretched to the max earlier in this episode.
Rev:I'm gonna do it, too.
Mac:No, it's okay.
Mac:I mean, you know, that's.
Mac:I mean, there's no doubt about that whole scenario.
Mac:That whole thing that happened is full of maverickness.
Rev:Oh, absolutely.
Coach Stu:Here's what.
Coach Stu:Here's what.
Coach Stu:As a coach, I can speak to this.
Coach Stu:Here's what.
Coach Stu:You don't know because you're not in his head.
Coach Stu:You're not in the coach's head.
Coach Stu:He knew exactly what he needed to say to his players, his team, because he knew every single one of those guys, and he knew what.
Coach Stu:What, what words were going to work for them.
Mac:Right, Right.
Coach Stu:No, there were different guys on the team.
Coach Stu:It might have been a different speech.
Mac:Right, right.
Coach Stu:But that's what worked for them and what needed, you know, what they needed to hear.
Mac:And one of the best lines to me in that whole movie, okay, is he kept asking them, who do you play for?
Mac:Yeah, who do you play for?
Mac:I play for Wisconsin.
Mac:Oh, I play for Minnesota.
Mac:Oh, I play for.
Mac:He's like.
Mac:He goes, hey, Listen to me.
Mac:The name on a front is way more important than the name on the back.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:You know, giving them some perspective.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So, yeah, that's good.
Mac:So anyway, there's.
Mac:There's a little bit of Maverick, Enos.
Mac:Some different, you know, so does a Maverick.
Rev:I want to take that.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:The name on the front is more important than the name on the back.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:Does a Maverick require us to set aside our own personal agendas, our own names, our own personalities for the greater good?
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:Does that mean sacrifice?
Rev:I think sometimes mavericks have to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Oh, I'll agree with that if you just watch the movies, right?
Mac:The Top Gun movies.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:I think that plays itself out in those scripts beautifully.
Coach Stu:Maverick literally.
Coach Stu:Literally did sacrifice himself.
Mac:Yeah, but you know that movie.
Rev:Yeah, true, but you were talking about the mentor.
Rev:He knew what words he had to say to pull out of them, to pull out of their.
Rev:Their doubt, the.
Rev:The fire in their belly.
Mac:Yep.
Mac:No, that's for sure.
Rev:That's what a mentor does.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:You know, like, you're skipping ahead here, but.
Rev:Okay, I'm sorry.
Mac:You know, we're excited.
Mac:I got me excited.
Mac:I got my agenda here.
Mac:And you just.
Mac:You know, he's blowing it all out here.
Mac:You know, screw your perspective.
Mac:All right, Now I've unleashed.
Mac:Oh, God.
Mac:Look what I've unleashed.
Mac:The crack is coming now.
Mac:Oh, boy.
Mac:All right, so that's Mavericky, and there's.
Mac:Again, there's a ton of different places we can go with that.
Mac:I think it just.
Mac:It's there, and we know it's there, and it's fun.
Mac:Okay, how about the Mystic?
Mac:What did we see in that speech that was a little bit.
Mac:I'm going to just say, you know, mysterious.
Coach Stu:I don't know if I would call it that, but it fits in this.
Coach Stu:He said you're.
Rev:I can't.
Coach Stu:I'm not going to say the words exactly, but he said something to the effect of your hockey players, or you were meant.
Mac:You were born.
Coach Stu:You were born hockey players, every one of them.
Coach Stu:That's like.
Coach Stu:You have that to me.
Coach Stu:I hear that.
Coach Stu:I'm like, I.
Coach Stu:I have everything I need right inside of me.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:To go out here and play the best game I can play because.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:I am a hockey player.
Rev:He was speaking to the mental game, the spiritual game, the emotional game.
Rev:They may not have been the best hockey players on that rink at that moment, but internally, he knew who they were.
Rev:He had to call it out.
Mac:That's exactly.
Rev:A mystic has to see the Possibility before it can become a reality.
Mac:There it is.
Mac:Oh, there's a meme.
Coach Stu:And here's the other thing.
Coach Stu:He took the fear out that some.
Coach Stu:Some of our monkey brains do this to ourselves.
Coach Stu:Like, oh, am I supposed to be here?
Coach Stu:Like, right.
Coach Stu:I don't know if I'm the guy.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:He took that right out, said, look, you're meant to be here.
Mac:That's right.
Mac:He took that destiny thing and he put it right, kind of right there.
Coach Stu:So if anybody was thinking it, anybody had any doubt, he took that away.
Rev:And each one of us sitting at this table, we've had mystics, our listeners have people that see in you beyond your fear, beyond your doubt, beyond your experience.
Mac:Exactly.
Rev:There's something greater underneath there.
Rev:That's what Jesus did.
Rev:I'm going to play the rev card.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:That's what Jesus did.
Rev:You're not defined by your circumstances or the better, better team or the worst team.
Rev:You're defined by who I know you to be.
Mac:I love that.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:And all of a sudden, it went from like a hockey speech in a locker room to, like, the cosmos, Jesus.
Mac:You know, I don't think the Dead Sea ever froze over, so probably not.
Rev:Okay.
Mac:I don't think so.
Mac:All right, so.
Mac:But just understand, you know, there's mystery involved with all of this, with winning and losing and your perspective and how you look at it and how you look at other people.
Mac:And again, if you're willing to get yourself out of the way a little bit and let that mystical stuff start to be part of the equation.
Rev:My favorite line was the one he said, they may be 10 games.
Rev:They're going to be nine times.
Rev:The mystic lives in the 10th time.
Rev:The mystic lives in the miracle that's on the other side of it.
Rev:Don't define yourself by nine losses, but by the one day and the one moment when you can win this game.
Mac:Yes.
Mac:I mean, I love that line as well.
Mac:That's one of my favorite lines, too.
Mac:So there's the mystic when it comes into this.
Mac:Lots more we could say about this, I'm sure.
Mac:All right, lastly, we've already hit around this, the mentor, Right.
Mac:We've talked about him giving the boys encouragement, perspective, you know, he getting the rah rah, practical.
Mac:He.
Mac:I mean, all those kinds of things are mentorship.
Mac:Yeah, you've already said it, Rev.
Mac:I mean, right.
Mac:So it was a huge part of this whole thing.
Mac:And the cool thing is, again, it's the.
Mac:It's almost at the end of the bigger arc that he had to take These guys over the course of a whole year and mentor them and coach them and bring them along, and they couldn't.
Mac:If you watch the movie, I mean, they're like, what is this guy doing?
Mac:You know?
Mac:And then you see these little victories all along the way.
Mac:All right.
Mac:Which is just beautiful.
Mac:I mean, it's just so beautiful that this was all about mentoring.
Rev:Well, and I like.
Rev:I always like to get the misfit perspective in here.
Rev:They were told, you don't belong here.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:You're not good enough to be here.
Mac:They were laughing.
Rev:They were the.
Rev:That they were the laughing stock.
Rev:There's not a chance it's going to be a blowout.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:They felt like they didn't belong there.
Rev:And the coach, you know, saw the misfit mentality.
Rev:And win by win, moment by moment, game by game, installed a new consciousness.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:And that's.
Rev:I look at my life.
Rev:I've lived that life.
Mac:Sure.
Rev:I didn't fit in.
Rev:I can't do this.
Rev:I've achieved things that a lot of people said would never be possible.
Rev:Thank God for the mystics and the mentors in my life.
Mac:We got to have somebody calling us out to greater things.
Mac:Isn't that it?
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:I love it, guys.
Mac:So good stuff, man.
Mac:I mean, it's all part of it.
Mac:I love it.
Mac:And whether you now can look back, because you're not going to hear this until Thursday at the earliest, which it'll come out.
Mac:So it'll be two days after the election.
Mac:So, you know, you couldn't go back and think this way tonight because you aren't going to hear this.
Mac:But maybe it'll help you put a little bit perspective on as we go into the future, whatever tonight brings.
Mac:Right.
Mac:You know, I mean, we don't know.
Mac:Nobody knows.
Coach Stu:Save this episode for four years from now.
Rev:I'll say when you listen to this.
Rev:On Thursday, we may not have a winner or a loser.
Coach Stu:You're right.
Coach Stu:We might.
Coach Stu:Still.
Rev:I'm gonna run the risk.
Rev:There may be nobody willing to admit they're the loser.
Mac:Well, that's part of it.
Mac:But they'll.
Mac:Maybe.
Mac:For the president, but they'll be.
Mac:I think there'll be lots of other.
Coach Stu:There's plenty of other.
Mac:Pretty much, you know.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:But we'll have to just deal with it as it comes along, guys.
Mac:But, you know, in all of this, you know, one of the things that we always call you out to, that, you know, is just all part of the deal.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Is that you have an ongoing mission.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:So should you choose to accept it.
Mac:You got to go rogue, okay?
Mac:Gotta go rogue.
Mac:Then you gotta find like minded rokers, right?
Mac:Here we are sitting around this table, right?
Mac:Then you gotta strap on the armor because you know what?
Mac:You're gonna, you're gonna do battle, you're gonna compete, you're gonna do battle.
Mac:It's gonna be part of it.
Mac:Then you want to storm the gates and we talk about this all the time.
Mac:Storm the gates more than anything of your conventionality, of the stuff that you always look at and you always think that's the way it works.
Coach Stu:Go to the inside edge, right?
Mac:That's right.
Mac:Go to the inside edge like we talked about last week.
Mac:And then lastly, this leads you to just unleash the unthinkable, you know, because you're going to bring in for yourself and for lots of other people, ideas that you would just never have heard of, never even thought about.
Mac:But that's what you do.
Rev:That in itself makes you a winner.
Mac:Absolutely.
Mac:So there it is.
Mac:What's this with that one?
Mac:I love it, Rev.
Mac:Good stuff.
Mac:So guys, thank you, my wise guys, always.
Mac:I learned from you guys and this was a fun one.
Mac:So thanks so much for listening.
Mac:We appreciate you, you know, tuning into us.
Mac:Tell all your friends, tell everybody.
Mac:You can give us some comments.
Mac:Vote.
Coach Stu:Vote yes.
Coach Stu:Vote.
Mac:Well, wait, wait, wait.
Mac:No.
Rev:Vote for the.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:Sign.
Mac:Vote for the sign.
Mac:We.
Mac:We're not gonna.
Mac:You already voted.
Mac:You didn't probably for the election.
Coach Stu:The energy, remember, we're putting the energy out there.
Coach Stu:Getting it out there.
Mac:Thanks a bunch.
Mac:We will see you again next week.
Mac:So we love you guys.
Mac:Have a good week.
Mac:Take care.
Narrator:Wow, you made it and can now unbuckle.
Narrator:Thanks for listening to winning and losing.
Narrator:An appropriate conversation on election night that reminds us to be a thermostat, not a thermometer.
Narrator:Remember to visit the website at Gorogue Life for lots of follow up information.
Narrator:See the show notes for any links to episode content.
Narrator:Check out the Seeing Differently blog and join us in the ongoing cafe conversation where we post some thought provoking ideas and challenges for your roguish conversations.
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Narrator:Be sure to tune in next week when Mac unleashes another unthinkable conversation.
Narrator:That is if you dare.
