Heaven, Hell, And Cosmic Consequences
We're diving right into a pretty juicy topic today: the whole heaven and hell situation, and trust me, it’s not as straightforward as you might think! We're here to stir the pot and challenge some of those old-school beliefs that might be holding you back. Love is the name of the game, and we’re asking the big question: does love really win? Spoiler alert: we’re leaning toward a resounding yes, but we’re also navigating through some of the touchy stuff surrounding the concept of hell. So grab your headphones and get comfy—let’s explore how our perceptions of God and love can reshape our understanding of these big concepts. Who knows? We might just spark some "aha" moments along the way!
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we dove deep into the controversial topics of heaven and hell, challenging traditional beliefs while keeping the conversation light and engaging.
- We emphasized the importance of viewing uncomfortable topics as opportunities for growth, and how discomfort can lead to deeper understanding.
- The guys discussed how love ultimately wins in the grand scheme of things, and how that perspective can reshape our understanding of faith and spirituality.
- One key takeaway is that our perceptions of God can greatly affect our views on heaven and hell, sparking a discussion on whether God is capricious or inherently loving.
- We explored the idea that Jesus did not come to save us from God, but rather from ourselves, inviting us to rethink how we view divine love and grace.
- Throughout the chat, we laughed and joked, proving that even deep, meaningful conversations can be fun and enlightening, encouraging listeners to share their thoughts with us.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Rob Bell
- C.S. Lewis
Transcript
All right.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Wise Guys, a podcast where we unleash the unthinkable, see things differently, and shatter the norms to help us expand our worldview.
Speaker A:You guys like that?
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker C:Come on.
Speaker A:You know, jeez.
Speaker A:I had to think really hard.
Speaker C:We need them.
Speaker C:Small minds are easily amused.
Speaker C:My father said.
Speaker C:I love all those tricks.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I laugh at it.
Speaker A:Anyway, so.
Speaker A:Hi, I'm Mac, and I'm your host.
Speaker A:In this episode, we're driving.
Speaker A:Let's see.
Speaker A:I got to come back.
Speaker A:Hi, I'm Mac, your host.
Speaker A:And in this episode, we're diving into what may be a little touchy subject for some folks.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker A:I think that's good.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:If we're not hitting on some touchy.
Speaker B:Stuff, then we're not doing our job.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:We're probably not making an impact, so.
Speaker A:And believe me, this topic has been somewhat touchy for each one of the three of us as we've had to work through some stuff.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Over the.
Speaker A:Over the years and things like that.
Speaker A:So, you know, join our world.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And we're sensitive, though, to that, where you might be coming from.
Speaker A:We're hoping you're going to be open enough to receive what we're saying, even though it might be a little contrary to your beliefs or to what you've been taught.
Speaker A:Hopefully there might be an aha moment in there, but each of us has our own challenges with, you know, the dogmas of heaven and hell.
Speaker A:Mostly.
Speaker A:We're going to probably talk more about hell in this episode, but they kind of go together, you know, I mean, it kind of can't talk about one until you talk.
Speaker A:You had to kind of talk about the other one, too.
Speaker A:But really it's more an idea about hell and where that came from and all that.
Speaker A:We're going to go there, so, you know, let's go.
Speaker A:And, you know, who knows how it got it?
Speaker A:God's in the middle of all this too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we're going to kind of.
Speaker C:God is guiding it.
Speaker C:God is directing it.
Speaker C:God is manifesting it into thy hands.
Speaker C:We turn it over.
Speaker C:God is.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker B:And God encourages this conversation.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:He does.
Speaker C:I loved our.
Speaker C:Our pre show conversation.
Speaker C:We're just talking about.
Speaker C:We want to create an open environment, not to.
Speaker C:To tear anything down, but to just consider different possibilities.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:I feel very safe doing that with you guys.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I hope our listeners feel safe, too.
Speaker C:All those.
Speaker C:What do you call them?
Speaker A:Exotic.
Speaker B:Exotic.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I'm Complete again.
Speaker A:But wait, we're ahead of ourself.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:We're.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker A:Okay, hang on a min.
Speaker A:Now you hear these guys in the background, but you have to understand, these are the wide guys.
Speaker A:Okay, These are my wise guys.
Speaker A:So we got the Rev back with us.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Grateful.
Speaker C:I missed you guys last week like crazy.
Speaker B:Yeah, likewise.
Speaker A:So we are so happy to have.
Speaker C:Been Mac and Stew withdrawals.
Speaker B:Good energy in here now.
Speaker B:Good energy.
Speaker A:And then, of course, Coach, too.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hey.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Hey, hey, hey, everybody.
Speaker A:Hello, Sparkling over here.
Speaker B:Hello.
Speaker B:And hello to all of you beautiful, exotic cocktails out there.
Speaker C:Hello, hello, hello.
Speaker B:So I gotta come up with a song for that.
Speaker B:Sing a little jingle dance.
Speaker B:Maybe the Rev can help me.
Speaker A:Don't dance.
Speaker C:That would be fun.
Speaker B:Don't dance.
Speaker B:Oh, that sounds like a challenge Rev.
Speaker A:Oh, boy.
Speaker A:This is already getting started off interesting.
Speaker A:You guys better strap in out there.
Speaker A:I'm just telling you, right?
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker A:Here we go.
Speaker A:All right, so here we are, back around the round table, all three of us.
Speaker B:Let me just say one quick thing, all right?
Speaker B:Deep, meaningful conversations can be fun.
Speaker B:Oh, and should be fun.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:So even if they feel uncomfortable, they should still be fun.
Speaker B:So that's what we are embodying.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Really get used to.
Speaker B:You have to get uncomfortable with being uncomfortable.
Speaker A:Very comfortable with being comfortable.
Speaker B:Comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Speaker A:All right, there we are.
Speaker C:Here we go.
Speaker A:So we might make you a little uncomfortable.
Speaker B:Let's go.
Speaker B:Let's go.
Speaker A:Here we are.
Speaker A:Here it is.
Speaker A:The older I get, the smarter my parents seem to get.
Speaker B:This is a problem for me because I don't get older.
Speaker A:Oh, excuse me.
Speaker B:Hey, it's a mindset.
Speaker C:You thing over there.
Speaker B:So it's a mindset.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:Well, the wiser you get, the more wise your parents seem to be.
Speaker A:How about that?
Speaker B:Oh, there we go.
Speaker C:I remember having conversations with my kids, and I, I.
Speaker C:They were about to turn 13.
Speaker C:I said, just be warned.
Speaker C:I'm about to become the stupidest person on the planet to you.
Speaker C:But don't wor worry.
Speaker C:In 10 years, I'll get my smarts.
Speaker A:I'll be the smartest.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's the best for anybody that's got kids, man.
Speaker A:You ought to know exactly about.
Speaker B:That's the best.
Speaker B:Well, you know, what's cool about this is, you know, life experiences turn into.
Speaker B:Into wisdom.
Speaker B:I mean, at least you hope they do, right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Well, so I think when you look.
Speaker B:At it like that, if you're looking at, like, what you actually said, the older that you get it just means you're living more life.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker B:So they're.
Speaker B:Hopefully there's wisdom.
Speaker C:So could that be the key to heaven and hell?
Speaker C:That I'm having a life experience?
Speaker C:If I turn it into wisdom, it becomes heaven.
Speaker C:If I.
Speaker C:If I turn it into victimhood, it becomes hell.
Speaker B:I like that.
Speaker C:Maybe I've got more power, which way I'm going at any given moment.
Speaker A:Well, there's.
Speaker A:We just pulled back the curtain a little bit right there.
Speaker A:Okay, get ready.
Speaker A:Okay, that's.
Speaker A:There's some wisdom.
Speaker A:Yeah, there.
Speaker A:All right, so before we get.
Speaker A:Before we get into this thing, I want to play this little snippet for you guys.
Speaker A:It's about a minute long, so, you know, don't.
Speaker A:You know, don't get anxious or anything like that, but this is.
Speaker C:We'll be back.
Speaker A:We will be back.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:But this is one of our.
Speaker A:In my.
Speaker A:For sure favorite ill intros he did for his book that he wrote, well, 13 12, 13 years ago.
Speaker A:Rob Bell, for all those.
Speaker A:You don't know him, but he wrote a book called Love Wins, and he did a little intro video for it.
Speaker A:You can find the full video out there on our website if you.
Speaker A:If you want to see the whole thing.
Speaker A:But I took this little snippet because I think.
Speaker A:Think it really speaks to an overarching idea or belief or whatever.
Speaker A:You want a reality that's true, and I don't really think it's gonna.
Speaker A:It's wherever you're coming from, I think it's gonna be true.
Speaker A:All right, so just listen to this, and then we'll kind of pick up on it and give it some context.
Speaker A:Okay, so hang on.
Speaker B:He's already shattering the door.
Speaker A:Wrong button.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh.
Speaker A:All right, let's see if we can find Rob here.
Speaker D:Years ago, we had an art show at our church, and people brought in all kinds of sculptures and paintings, and we put them on display.
Speaker D:And there was this one piece that had a quote from Gandhi in it.
Speaker D:And lots of people found this piece compelling.
Speaker D:They'd stop and sort of stare at it and take it in and reflect on it.
Speaker D:But not everybody found it that compelling.
Speaker D:Somewhere in the course of the art show, somebody attached a handwritten note to the piece, and on the note they had written, reality check.
Speaker D:He's in hell.
Speaker D:Gandhi's in hell.
Speaker D:He is.
Speaker D:And someone knows this for sure and felt the need to let the rest of us know.
Speaker D:Will only a few select people make it to heaven?
Speaker D:And will billions and billions of people burn forever in hell?
Speaker D:And Then there is the question behind the questions.
Speaker D:The real question, what is God like?
Speaker D:Because millions and millions of people were taught that the primary message, the center of the gospel of Jesus is that God is going to send you to hell unless you believe in Jesus.
Speaker D:And so what gets subtly sort of caught and taught is that Jesus rescues you from God.
Speaker D:But what kind of God is that that we would need to be rescued from this God?
Speaker D:How could that God ever be good?
Speaker D:How could that God ever be trusted?
Speaker D:And how could that ever be good news?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Okay, so that's.
Speaker A:There's a lot to think about right there, gang.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Probably the hundredth time I've heard it and it still is relevant to the world we live in today.
Speaker A:Very much.
Speaker C:Good question.
Speaker A:Very much so.
Speaker A:You know, in context, the big question that we'll put up there at the top in this episode is does love win?
Speaker A:You know, does love?
Speaker A:Which means, does God win?
Speaker A:Because God is.
Speaker C:I'll give my coach Stu answer.
Speaker B:Yes, straight to the point.
Speaker C:For those of you that like to read the last chapter first.
Speaker B:Yes is the answer.
Speaker C:But please stick around because we're going.
Speaker B:To talk about it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, that's right.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker A:Drop the mic.
Speaker A:Oh, God, I got quoted by the Rev.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:I'm quoting him.
Speaker A:There we go.
Speaker A:So, yes.
Speaker A:Does, does love win?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And even if you can say I think so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then what does that really look like?
Speaker A:And what does that really mean?
Speaker A:And that's kind of what we're going to talk about.
Speaker B:Well, here, here's another.
Speaker B:I can already hear people having this thought.
Speaker B:Can love win?
Speaker B:Like, does it?
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, there's almost.
Speaker B:There's another like, question in the question.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, does love win?
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We were like, oh, yeah, of course.
Speaker B:But some people might be like, huh?
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Or, or I want it to.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:I hope so.
Speaker B:I hope so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm not sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:You know, there are people out there listening right now that are going through hellish experiences, things that are fear, fear inducing and anger producing.
Speaker C:I think asking the question is not so easy when you're in the middle of that place.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker C:So there is going to be a little doubt.
Speaker C:Does love win?
Speaker C:God, I hope so.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker A:I want.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, okay.
Speaker B:And that's okay.
Speaker B:Hopefully we can help you take a step towards the yes part of that equation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:I lean into the people when I'm going through those experiences.
Speaker C:I lean into the people who have that solid yes.
Speaker C:I need you right now.
Speaker C:I need to lean into your Faith, your belief that love is going to win.
Speaker C:And hold that for me.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's hard to.
Speaker A:You're exactly right.
Speaker A:It's hard to go there in the midst of really calamity and disaster.
Speaker A:I mean, you can kind of play around with it a little bit if you just, you know, gain a few pounds.
Speaker A:I want to lose a few pounds.
Speaker A:But, you know, this is a big deal.
Speaker A:I mean, it really is.
Speaker A:Because here's.
Speaker A:Here's to what the rest of this episode is going to give you.
Speaker A:Ponder over is your world view on God.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because the concept of hell and heaven runs directly through how you perceive God and how God operates and character, all the rest of the kind of things, how God interacts with all of us.
Speaker A:So, you know, we might be going at, you know, you know, a little bit in challenging something up there on the way up there and high, you know, so.
Speaker A:So, you know, there's lots of concepts of heaven and hell.
Speaker A:You can go.
Speaker A:I don't care whether it's in Christianity or, you know, Judaism or, you know, all the way around this idea of the good place and the bad place.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Whatever they want to call it, Many, many religions throughout time have had, you know, those concepts in there.
Speaker A:And I'm going to try.
Speaker A:I think we want to try tonight.
Speaker A:As I said earlier, let's put the overarching commonality.
Speaker A:Can we go there?
Speaker A:Maybe that again?
Speaker A:Let's come back to love.
Speaker A:If God's character, and not just character, but if God is love, then everything we're going to talk about from here on.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We got to run it through that grid.
Speaker B:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker C:But I have to anchor to that love.
Speaker C:You know, my thoughts have to be centered on that love.
Speaker C:My heart needs to be centered on that love.
Speaker C:My actions need to be connected to that love.
Speaker C:Because when I'm not connected, is it possible that love doesn't win or.
Speaker C:It sure feels like love doesn't win.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Because I've not.
Speaker C:For me, I've moved in consciousness.
Speaker C:I've moved in reality.
Speaker C:That is a false reality.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's a great.
Speaker A:Well, we're going to.
Speaker A:We're going to kind of unpack that perspective a little bit because there's a couple components about that that the rev just mentioned that again, might swim a little bit against the current here.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But just hang in there with us.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:So let's.
Speaker A:We're going to pose just some questions.
Speaker A:We're just going to.
Speaker A:They're for you out there.
Speaker A:And they're also for us absolutely right here.
Speaker A:You know that we're going to banter around a little bit about our perspective on some of these questions and we're hope you're going to ask yourself and your, you know, the people that you run with, have a conversation, see what they come up with, you know, so here we go.
Speaker A:Let's go with the first one.
Speaker A:Why do we need.
Speaker A:Need the concept of hell and eternal damnation?
Speaker A:What do we.
Speaker A:Why did that create a need for us?
Speaker A:Or do we have a need or is it just there?
Speaker B:Well, I can tell you, growing up Catholic, hell was used for me as a tool of fear.
Speaker B:And, you know, so I heard things like, do this or you're going to hell, or if you don't do this, you're going to hell.
Speaker B:Like this is either way.
Speaker B:I was like, yeah.
Speaker B:So it almost seemed like, and I'm not trying to sound too dramatic, it almost seemed like somebody was trying to control me in some way.
Speaker B:They wanted me to do certain things or not do certain things under threat, which, you know, if I.
Speaker B:And I'm going to look at it like they're kind coming from a place of love.
Speaker B:They want the best for me.
Speaker B:So I get all that, but that.
Speaker B:But it didn't feel very good, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah, you had to disconnect.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I, I always felt like when I was, when I was making wrong decisions, I was like, oh, it's over.
Speaker B:I'm going to hell.
Speaker B:And being a Catholic, I had confession, which was fantastic because every week I could just go get absolved of all that.
Speaker B:So anyway, I would go down a.
Speaker A:Rabbit trail, but, well, that's the etcher sketch thing.
Speaker A:Oh, good gosh.
Speaker A:I drew that picture this week.
Speaker B:Shake it up.
Speaker A:Okay, let's start over.
Speaker C:You know, I tend to fall in the same place that hell has been used as a weapon, a threat to manipulate a control.
Speaker C:But, you know, the other side of the coin is it has created Heaven and Hell.
Speaker C:The ideas of these two things has created a moral compass.
Speaker C:It's given us a due know of what is good, what is just what is right and what, what, what is.
Speaker C:What is the right thing to do, you know?
Speaker C:Yeah, it's misguided at times, but I know I'm a better person because of the teachings I got as a kid about hell.
Speaker C:It may have induced fear, but it also, I believe, made me a better man today.
Speaker B:Well, and let's acknowledge that that's a good thing.
Speaker B:You know, whether you believe that or not, that's if that was your Belief, that's a good thing, to have some type of moral compass.
Speaker B:It guided me as a child.
Speaker B:I mean, Mac, you grew up, Cat, like I did, so same thing, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And again, as you get a little older and you start to begin to think for yourself, you got to overcome somewhat of that fear factor, because built into that, like, the Rev has already said that.
Speaker A:That there's a certain component in there, that there's a fear, you know, that you don't want to go to the bad place.
Speaker C:All right, but does it matter?
Speaker C:Does the intent matter?
Speaker C:Or does the matter with what I do?
Speaker C:With the intent or the actions or the experience?
Speaker C:You know, somewhere that Joseph is saying, what man intended for evil, God used for good, that I can actually use an intent that might be to manipulate me and control me, but I used it for a moral compass.
Speaker C:So I get to take the power back and use it for something better.
Speaker A:Well, your consciousness rolls above.
Speaker A:That is what you did, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that has to be a conscious decision, Right?
Speaker A:Right, right, right.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And when you talk about heaven and hell, it speaks right into the ancient.
Speaker A:I mean, it goes back almost as far as we have written, that of a very dualistic cosmos, if you want to call it that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That you have the positive part of the ether out there that we really don't understand all that well, so we're going to kind of massage it and make it understandable for us.
Speaker A:And then you have the opposite, and you have the.
Speaker A:The negative, you know, so, you know, you got A or B.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:There's no.
Speaker A:You know, there's no middle ground.
Speaker A:And so, again, we.
Speaker A:Most of the world was created in a dualistic way.
Speaker A:You know, it's just, you know, that's.
Speaker A:That's where we live.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, if.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If there's heaven, then there has to be hell in that thing.
Speaker A:That's what I'm saying.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And if there's.
Speaker B:You know, because if there's light, there's got to be dark.
Speaker B:How do you have.
Speaker B:How do you have one without the other?
Speaker C:Is darkness a thing or is it just the absence of.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, yeah, it is hell.
Speaker C:Not.
Speaker C:Not really a thing.
Speaker C:It's just the absence of God.
Speaker B:Absence of love, right?
Speaker A:Of love.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:Well, and if we're going to go there.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:If we're going to go there, we gotta.
Speaker A:Let's qualify that by saying, and it's not God that isn't the love, and it's not God that changes.
Speaker A:It's Our perception that love.
Speaker B:Let me share with everybody out there what I shared with you all before in our pre show, that I had found a quote from C.S.
Speaker B:lewis.
Speaker B:Everybody knows who that is, right?
Speaker B:C.S.
Speaker B:lewis, that described hell as the door locked from the inside.
Speaker B:And so what he means, it's.
Speaker B:It's like where souls choose separation because they reject love, not because God throws him into a fire.
Speaker B:Right, because you're rejecting love.
Speaker B:So that's where you.
Speaker B:You end up.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I just love that view.
Speaker B:I kind of resonated with that when I.
Speaker B:When I heard it.
Speaker C:I've heard something similar.
Speaker C:It's like we're inside a palace.
Speaker C:Being inside the prison, the.
Speaker C:With the unlocked door, but we don't know that it can be open.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:We think it's locked.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Choice.
Speaker C:There's the key word you talked about, right?
Speaker A:Choice.
Speaker A:We have.
Speaker A:And here's the thing.
Speaker A:How do you change how you grid what choice you're going to make?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Because we all get to make them all the time.
Speaker A:And so somewhere along the line, truth has to come to you that helps you choose this one over that one, because you have a higher level of consciousness, of the divine, of how it works.
Speaker A:Not that you've arrived, right?
Speaker A:But you're, you know, you're on a.
Speaker A:You're on a journey that.
Speaker A:Ah, okay.
Speaker A:I'm not going to think that way.
Speaker A:I'm not going to act that way.
Speaker A:Right, Because.
Speaker C:And it's not one time you use the key word.
Speaker C:It is a journey.
Speaker C:It is several choices.
Speaker C:It is turning the boat around.
Speaker C:And you turn a boat around in the ocean, it sometimes takes miles.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, you're turning a light around.
Speaker C:From victimhood to what I call verity consciousness.
Speaker C:I'm aware that I'm one with the presence of God.
Speaker C:That's a long.
Speaker C:That's a lifetime journey.
Speaker A:True, true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're trying to turn the aircraft carrier and it just doesn't happen.
Speaker C:It doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker A:But, you know, I love that analogy because I've heard it a lot of different times.
Speaker A:Here's the thing.
Speaker A:Sometimes we're on the aircraft carrier, and yet sometimes again, as we raise our consciousness and realize these things and are in tune with them, sometimes we can be in a little skiff and, you know, these overwhelming kinds of things can become and get a little easier because we're grounded a little bit better.
Speaker A:You know, what are we grounded to?
Speaker C:Let's go back to that.
Speaker C:We're grounded to love God as love.
Speaker C:There's the more grounded and centered and Focused, I am there.
Speaker C:The more I can traverse the seas.
Speaker B:So I think it's important to note that a lot of people have.
Speaker B:When you say the word hell, or have they have a visual.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:For hell, we could probably blame Dante's Inferno, right.
Speaker B:For that one.
Speaker B:But the visual.
Speaker B:Yeah, the visual.
Speaker B:For the visual of what.
Speaker B:What hell is like.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So I got a question for you guys, but can hell just be viewed as your choice to separate yourself from God?
Speaker A:Well, I think that's.
Speaker B:I mean, I would not be like Dante's Inferno.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, I've been in and out of hell sometimes ten times a night, one day, based on my thinking and my consciousness and my wow, whining and complaining, or my owning my life, I could go back to heaven, and then I'm one thought away from going right back down to hell.
Speaker A:Well, here's the thing.
Speaker A:I'm going to answer Stu's question.
Speaker B:I'm ready for you.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You guys are learning straight to the point.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Oh, boy.
Speaker A:So there we are.
Speaker A:So, you know, you also have to sort of go back because it.
Speaker A:You have to say, well, where did this come from?
Speaker A:You know, especially when you talk in the Christian realm.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm not going to go back to all the different, you know, religions across, you know, time.
Speaker A:But from a, you know, from a Christian standpoint, most of the time, things point back to the Bible.
Speaker A:You know, that's the litmus.
Speaker A:There's the.
Speaker A:There's the truth.
Speaker A:There's where heaven and hell are.
Speaker A:You know, even the concept of them would come from, because that's considered the truth.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You have to also understand that at the very beginning, I mean, like, Jesus wasn't, you know, dead or risen or, you know, in heaven very long.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And they weren't thinking that way.
Speaker A:I mean, the early church was not thinking about the fact that there's a heaven place you go and a hell place you go.
Speaker A:I mean, the faith, you know, developed over time and lots of little components can go into that, control the empire, all sorts of other things.
Speaker A:Or how this person over here interprets what Jesus said and how this person over here interprets what Jesus says, or just understand that there's a dynamic here.
Speaker A:It just wasn't stamped in stone once and for all.
Speaker A:And everybody.
Speaker A:That's the.
Speaker A:That's the what everybody's going by.
Speaker B:Okay, you know what, what I love, you mentioned the Bible, and so that gives me the okay to talk about Jesus.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker B:So I'm going to say that Jesus spoke less about Going to heaven than in more about like bringing the kingdom of God like here to earth, like right now.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And with, you know, so those.
Speaker B:So those of you out there that you know are.
Speaker B:Are putting a lot of weight on what is in the Bible.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:I mean, Jesus said it, right?
Speaker B:Or didn't say it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But he did say he's trying.
Speaker B:He's bringing the kingdom of God to earth.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, he's bringing it here, heaven on earth.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:He got crucified for doing that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he got.
Speaker C:Yeah, because that challenged the power structure.
Speaker B:He got a little trouble.
Speaker B:Yeah, he got a little trouble because they couldn't control him so.
Speaker A:Well, what did you.
Speaker A:What was your title of your talk this weekend?
Speaker C:A force to be reckoned.
Speaker A:To be reckoned with.
Speaker A:I love that, you know, and I.
Speaker C:Jesus was not crucified for being sweet and nice and spiritual and compassionate.
Speaker C:He was being vocal and he was challenging the paradigm like we do a little bit.
Speaker C:I don't want to be crucified.
Speaker C:So, you know, but in the most loving way.
Speaker C:Can I offer a different perspective?
Speaker C:That's exactly what he did.
Speaker C:And it's exactly.
Speaker C:He brought heaven to earth.
Speaker C:You can have that experience within you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Well, I know, I know the, the Pharisees back in that day, they were the ones that were closest to God.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:In their minds.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Supposedly.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And Jesus was saying, hey, look, you can be just as close, if not closer.
Speaker B:Let me show you how.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:No, you're taking my power away.
Speaker A:Well, let me say this because I came to this realization.
Speaker A:For me, sue mentions this.
Speaker A:There have certainly been several times along the way in my life that I have looked in the mirror and I've said, you Pharisee.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because I act or I think or I would, you know, I had to be honest with myself and just have a confession standing right there.
Speaker A:That man, oh man, that was pharasitical.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I think I need a, you know, two by four or whatever it's going to take.
Speaker C:We are one thought any one of us from having the Pharisee be given life in us.
Speaker C:Yeah, we get sad to see I've got a corner on the mark of their truth.
Speaker C:It's a spiritual arrogance that I've got the answer and you don't.
Speaker C:That's a Pharisee.
Speaker A:Yes, it is.
Speaker C:And let me tell you, the Christ of my heart is going to challenge that.
Speaker C:Am I looking the mirror?
Speaker C:It's going to challenge it, sure.
Speaker A:Well, Jesus came and challenged it too, didn't He.
Speaker B:So what do we say at the beginning?
Speaker B:Love wins.
Speaker A:Love wins.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Loves will speak up, though.
Speaker C:Love will speak up with power.
Speaker A:That doesn't mean it's passive necessarily.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're on that thought.
Speaker A:Love wins still.
Speaker A:We're going back to the beginning.
Speaker A:All right, we're gonna take a little break.
Speaker A:We're just gonna take an exhale, so just stay with us.
Speaker A:We're gonna be right back.
Speaker A:Appreciate you listening.
Speaker A:Hang on.
Speaker B:One question.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, actually, it was more than one in there, but a few more.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well.
Speaker A:And a good thing I knew was going to happen was that as I'm going down this list, I'm going to go, oh, we already kind of talked about that.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, we already talked about that.
Speaker A:You know, I knew they were all going to sort of weave together right now.
Speaker B:That's funny.
Speaker B:You're tracking time, right?
Speaker B:Because we don't have a time.
Speaker B:I mean, I have it on my phone, too, and I got it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:26.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Are you got.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:You do have.
Speaker B:Yeah, we have.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:All right, let's not waste any time because Rev's got the.
Speaker B:I've got a battery that's running down, Running low.
Speaker A:All right, welcome back to the Wise Guys podcast, where we're in the first half of the episode.
Speaker A:Well, in the whole episode we're going, we've been talking about mainly the concept of hell and.
Speaker A:And where maybe we're reframing that a little bit.
Speaker A:Of course, heaven comes into that, you know, discussion as well, but we're mainly focusing on, you know, what's the deal with this whole thing about hell?
Speaker A:And then we started the whole thing with Rob Bell and his idea that I think is amazing.
Speaker A:Love wins.
Speaker A:And it's just kind of like, where do you go with that?
Speaker A:Okay, if that's true, then what does that really mean?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we've been just, you know, fleshing out some questions about hell and about heaven.
Speaker A:And so I think one of the most important things for me, anyway, the question we can ask in all this, when it comes to hell and even heaven, is God capricious?
Speaker A:See?
Speaker A:Is God capricious?
Speaker A:And, you know, you might have to look that word up.
Speaker A:It's not usually in the normal vocabulary for most people, but it, you know, let's make it simple.
Speaker A:Does God pick and choose based upon his.
Speaker A:I'm going to call it whim, but it's probably more, you know, thought through than that.
Speaker A:But what I'm saying is think about yourself and how you react to certain situations and certain, you know, people and whatever it might be, and you give a thumbs up, you give a thumbs down, you shrug, you this.
Speaker A:We do all these crazy, wacky things and we personify that onto God.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because we don't.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, this is the way it works.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, and it's how we can relate and understand the concept of, of God.
Speaker B:You know, just being human beings.
Speaker B:Like, somebody might not even realize they're saying it.
Speaker B:They might look at like something like, like bad weather, a tornado or something, say, oh, man, God's angry today.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Some of that stuff was said to me when I was, when I was younger.
Speaker B:You know, the lightning in the sky.
Speaker B:Oh, God's like angry or he's bowling.
Speaker B:But, you know, it's really like, to answer this, I mean, to me, it's an obvious no.
Speaker B:Everybody might not be there because you have an understanding of God that works for you.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So to me, if you have that and you want to try to see it differently or feel it differently in your mind, you can look at God's character.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And, and I know that's a Persona, but if you can know and understand God's character, we, we can understand and know God's character if we create a personal relationship with him.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I think that's kind of the direction you got to take if you're having a hard time answering this question.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because then you'll see that he's really.
Speaker B:That God is really not capricious.
Speaker B:You know, God is love.
Speaker B:This is what we're talking about today.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And love.
Speaker B:Love is love.
Speaker C:I mean, yeah, my, my best relationships.
Speaker C:I, I know I can count on you.
Speaker C:You're going to be the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Speaker C:And that's what scripture has told us.
Speaker C:God is the same.
Speaker C:It's absolute, unchanging, unwavering.
Speaker C:That's the opposite of capricious.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:Oh, but we've so many people are praying, oh, let's just change God's mind.
Speaker C:If enough of us pray, we're going to change God's mind.
Speaker C:That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.
Speaker C:We're changing our mind to put ourselves into congruity with love.
Speaker C:We're putting our heart into the, the flow and the vibration, the frequency of love.
Speaker C:We're the ones changing when we pray.
Speaker B:Quick.
Speaker B:God does not change quick side road because he mentioned prayer.
Speaker B:And it's just quick, quick side path.
Speaker B:I learned.
Speaker B:I've had a lot of Conversations about prayer over the years, right?
Speaker B:And I learned that when my prayer is very different today than it used to be.
Speaker B:And in the past, what I used to do is just bargain, right?
Speaker B:I would just bargain with God.
Speaker B:That was my prayer, right?
Speaker B:And so it'd be something like this, okay, I know I'm going 90 and there's a cop behind me, but I swear, God, on this next stoplight, I will stop twice.
Speaker C:I will.
Speaker B:I won't speed the whole way home if you let those lights go by.
Speaker B:Like, that's a prayer.
Speaker B:We like bargaining with God.
Speaker B:God just help me manipulate the situation.
Speaker B:Yeah, it doesn't work like that.
Speaker B:I learned it does not work that way.
Speaker C:My wife has bargained with God at the top of a Ferris wheel or a roller coaster and say, God, if you just get me off this, this ride alive, I will never sin again.
Speaker B:Well, again, it's all about like creating that personal relationship, you know, with God and understanding.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and again, if the only way to understand it differently is you have to raise your level of consciousness that begins to grid things in a different way and hopefully a higher.
Speaker A:And I'm going to use the word higher just because as you understand, especially in this case, God's character, deeper.
Speaker A:Because the minute we think we got it licked, we're already messed up.
Speaker B:Bring me a higher love.
Speaker B:Come on, Red.
Speaker A:You know, I knew of if I just open that crack a little bit, man, I was going to be in trouble.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:But you know, the other word that comes in with the capriciousness of God is we put a human characteristic, and that's the characteristic of fairness.
Speaker A:We think God's fair, okay?
Speaker B:Or should be.
Speaker C:Well, yeah, but scripture tells us rain.
Speaker C:The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
Speaker C:That's the absolute nature.
Speaker C:I am rain.
Speaker C:I'm giving.
Speaker C:That's it.
Speaker C:That's all that God knows what to do.
Speaker C:And it's like, that's not fair.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:And we want to go there because that's the way we think as humans.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, so again, you have to sort of remove some of this humanness that we have that we look at each other and think and you sort of step back and don't apply those same characteristics like we were talking about in the pre show.
Speaker A:This might, this might rock you a little bit.
Speaker A:But as far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely no way you can offend God.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:Think about it.
Speaker A:How can I offend how small is.
Speaker C:Your God if he can Be offended.
Speaker A:So easily, you know?
Speaker A:So, I mean, we like to think about these character qualities.
Speaker A:What are God's character like?
Speaker A:Well, let's go back to Rob Bell love.
Speaker A:Let's just start right there.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So, you know, you have to sort of get off this looking, encourage you if this is foreign to you.
Speaker A:And if you're kind of going, I don't really.
Speaker A:That's not the way I've ever looked at God.
Speaker A:Take an exhale.
Speaker A:Just take an exhale.
Speaker A:Play this again if you need to.
Speaker A:Just sit with it for a little bit, but ponder the possibilities that there just might be some truth here.
Speaker C:I remember the moment in my life when I was introduced to the idea that God so loved me, that God was going to guide me, lead me, love me, support me, no matter what.
Speaker C:And it was like life began to change.
Speaker C:Life is for me.
Speaker C:God is for me.
Speaker C:I began to establish that relationship, and it was like, wow.
Speaker C:I became more prosperous in every area of my life, more blessed in every area of my life because I was aware of it.
Speaker C:Well, yeah, I was cooperating with love as opposed to thinking it was the enemy.
Speaker B:That is such a great evolution in your, you know, spirituality or just your growth in life.
Speaker B:Because some people look at God from a perspective of God doing something to them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Like, God, why are you doing this to me?
Speaker B:Or why are you letting this happen to me?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not like that.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:I mean, no, if you're God, if you think God is like that, I beg you to try to just see it differently.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because that's not how God.
Speaker C:Try it on for size just for 10 minutes for our day.
Speaker A:Yeah, we talked about this at pre show.
Speaker A:That for me, you know, when I began to accept some of these truths that we now hold and I had to make a shift.
Speaker A:Don't get me for sure it was an exhale.
Speaker A:I mean, it was a new perspective that leaned in instead of pushing away, going, oh, man, don't you know, you know, don't get me a lightning bolt.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:So it's living life out of fear.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:The next the foot's going, next foot's going to drop.
Speaker C:Oh, my God, God's going to get me.
Speaker C:And I was talking about the bird at the bird feeder, so afraid that, oh, my God.
Speaker C:And they're dropping all the food out of all the nourishment that was provided for them.
Speaker C:They were dropping it because they were sleeping in fear.
Speaker C:And the birds that were cool and chill and we're good, ate.
Speaker C:Well, the same is true for Us.
Speaker A:I love that story, man.
Speaker A:That's awesome.
Speaker B:So, Mac, you said fairness at the beginning of this.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So just, like, is.
Speaker B:How right is that?
Speaker B:Is this, like, justice?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, are we talking about, like, how can God be just and loving at the same time?
Speaker B:Are we kind of.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think you can kind of.
Speaker A:I think you can connect those two together.
Speaker A:You know, I think fairness almost doesn't.
Speaker A:For me anyway.
Speaker A:I'm just saying, doesn't take quite the.
Speaker B:Weight, maybe that of being just.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, you think, Justin, you think of the gavel and.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You're going to hell.
Speaker A:You're going to heaven.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And this is a big question.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker B:That people have, because they.
Speaker B:They can't reconcile that how can God be just and loving?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:But here.
Speaker B:Here's how I look at it.
Speaker B:Like, justice isn't.
Speaker B:Justice isn't the opposite of love.
Speaker B:Like, it's an expression of it.
Speaker A:Right, right, right.
Speaker B:I'm not getting a meme out of that.
Speaker B:I worked hard on that one.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:I was hoping.
Speaker A:I was thinking through it, you know?
Speaker B:You know, but because justice is like, you know, what you do matters.
Speaker B:That's kind of justice.
Speaker B:And love is like.
Speaker B:Like, hey, you still matter, you know?
Speaker B:So, I mean, they.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker B:I mean, it.
Speaker B:It's kind of like the way I look at this is like.
Speaker B:I mean, we're all parents, right?
Speaker B:The way I look at this is like.
Speaker B:Like a parent, like, you know, you forgive your.
Speaker B:Your child when they do something, but you're still going to teach them right from wrong.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, you're not angry at them per se.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You love them and you're trying, but you're.
Speaker B:You know, the just part is you're trying to teach them, like, how to be, you know, a better person, more loving, whatever it is, you know, so.
Speaker B:Because you love them too much to ignore that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I think God does the same thing with us.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:Like, I think the rep said it.
Speaker A:God's for us.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And when God is for you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That changes.
Speaker A:That changes the whole equation, doesn't it?
Speaker C:As parents, we have given our kids all the tools they need that we have at our disposal.
Speaker C:All the tools have been given.
Speaker C:Now they're going to learn to use that tool, and sometimes they'll misuse it.
Speaker C:God isn't going to interfere with that.
Speaker C:But if you break the tool, there's a new one there.
Speaker C:The toolbox is continually, infinitely replenished.
Speaker C:And so I like to use the word law and love as two Aspects of God, it's just law.
Speaker C:Here are the ways you can create the most amazing life.
Speaker C:You use them consciously or use them unconsciously.
Speaker C:One will lead to heaven, one will lead to hell.
Speaker C:Here are the tools that we have been given as children of God.
Speaker C:And I'm not going to interfere.
Speaker C:Learn.
Speaker C:I know.
Speaker C:I learned how to use tools with a little bit of coaching.
Speaker C:That was the divine guidance.
Speaker C:And then I had to go, hands off.
Speaker C:I didn't really know how to use those tools when you're building houses until you actually had it in your hand and you were doing it and making.
Speaker A:Mistakes, banging the nails.
Speaker B:Well, there's growth in.
Speaker B:In failure, right?
Speaker B:So you would be doing a disservice.
Speaker B:And to me, it wouldn't be loving if you.
Speaker B:If you always bailed out your.
Speaker A:All right, child.
Speaker B:There's no earlier.
Speaker B:There's no learning in that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now are you there with them?
Speaker B:Yes, of course.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, that's one of the questions.
Speaker B:Is God there with you throughout all of this?
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Well, we did.
Speaker A:We read a book years ago and then we've talked about it, I think a little bit on this podcast.
Speaker A:But, you know, here's reality for us, right?
Speaker A:That God loves everyone.
Speaker A:Let's repeat that word.
Speaker A:Everyone beyond their wildest imagination.
Speaker A:You can't even conceive it truly.
Speaker A:I mean, it's just so beautiful.
Speaker A:For eternity.
Speaker A:No questions asked.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:No delineation, no capriciousness.
Speaker A:Okay, you're in.
Speaker A:You're not.
Speaker A:Oh, you got to work on this.
Speaker A:Oh, sorry.
Speaker A:You know, no, it just starts that way, ends that way.
Speaker C:That's what you're saying.
Speaker C:You just took away hell, you know, you took away this personalized torture chamber that the God of my man made delusions created for me if I don't behave well, right.
Speaker C:If God is love, God can only know love, can only give love.
Speaker C:So it will be a love filled experience when we ascend.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And you can't be separated from that.
Speaker A:There's just no way can I believe that I'm separate from it.
Speaker A:There comes the problem, okay?
Speaker A:There comes the hell on earth kind of thing, right?
Speaker A:When I adopt the wrong perception that now I have either been separated by God, you know, in other words, his, you know, his action says sorry or me, you know, either way, right now, I think you.
Speaker A:What you're saying is true, that it's me, not.
Speaker A:Not God, you know, and just be aware of that.
Speaker A:I mean, it.
Speaker A:That could be an aha moment for you.
Speaker C:It says in scripture that in my Father's house are many rooms, many mansions.
Speaker C:Many dimensions are the words I use.
Speaker C:Many levels to that.
Speaker C:Are we responsible for what level we're on at any given moment?
Speaker C:I know it's like Jacob's ladder.
Speaker C:I'm ascending and I'm descending with the thoughts I'm thinking, putting myself in a higher dimension of oneness with God or a lower dimension of separateness from God.
Speaker C:And I am the cause of where I happen to be at any given moment.
Speaker A:Well, God's not place.
Speaker A:Here's the common thing.
Speaker A:If you're going to use that theme, it would typically be, all right, you are in room 301.
Speaker A:You're in room 214.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, it's directed by God in again his humanity that we.
Speaker C:Give God the greatest scapegoat of humanity.
Speaker C:I can blame God for everything.
Speaker C:I'm off the hook.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker A:That's a red.
Speaker A:A realization I didn't come to.
Speaker A:Rev.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh.
Speaker C:I'm in room 302 because of God.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It doesn't have a view even.
Speaker C:But the door is locked from the inside.
Speaker A:I can open it.
Speaker C:Just like you said.
Speaker C:I can open it and go to room 304.
Speaker C:I like it better.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker A:You know, we're giving you all sorts of little, you know, isms here.
Speaker A:This is great.
Speaker A:So, you know, again, we can't.
Speaker A:But I think what we've woven in, in this whole conversation as you begin to move away from the idea that there is a place called heaven that's there and there's a place called hell that's there.
Speaker A:And now you begin to go back to Jesus's words that we were already talking about that he brought, he ushered in the kingdom.
Speaker A:And that kingdom is where?
Speaker B:Here.
Speaker A:Right here and inside of us.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And he said that, he said this.
Speaker A:So I mean, it's not like we're trying to pull this stuff out of thin air.
Speaker C:He's pulling us to the higher dimension.
Speaker C:You don't have to camp out in room three.
Speaker C:Go to, let's go to room 508.
Speaker A:Come on, come on, let's go.
Speaker A:Yeah, because I got a king sized bed versus a queen.
Speaker A:Man, I like that better because he tasted it.
Speaker A:He knew it.
Speaker C:He's preparing that room for us.
Speaker C:He says, I'm preparing that place for you.
Speaker C:I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna get you.
Speaker C:Because there's so much more love than you even know.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Doesn't that mean, doesn't that make you feel Good.
Speaker A:What else?
Speaker A:I mean, it could go way beyond that.
Speaker A:But, man, I mean, you just kind of come to a place where you go, this is good.
Speaker B:Hey, I got a question for you guys.
Speaker A:Oh, here he comes.
Speaker B:Can you.
Speaker B:Can you're living in heaven, be contagious around other people?
Speaker B:And in turn, if you're putting yourself in hell and through hell, is that rubbing off on other people around you?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:No, it can't happen.
Speaker C:Well, the first question, I was going to say, God, I hope so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then, you know, can I rub off if I'm in a hellish mood and a hellish thought.
Speaker C:I mean, it rubs off, too.
Speaker B:It happens, right?
Speaker B:We try for it not to happen, but, you know, it's.
Speaker B:Imagine trying to be that person who's walking through heaven and you come across somebody who's walking through hell, right?
Speaker B:Like, what does that look like?
Speaker B:Can.
Speaker B:You know, I always hope I can inspire the person.
Speaker B:Like, hey, man, step over here, right?
Speaker B:Like, it's better over here.
Speaker B:Like, it's more fun over here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, I feel love.
Speaker B:I feel good.
Speaker B:Like, come on out.
Speaker B:Come on out of where you are.
Speaker A:Their darkness is.
Speaker B:I mean, I just.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because we all affect one another.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker B:And I think that.
Speaker B:I mean, we're all here together.
Speaker C:Does it require me, because this is a really good metaphor to go down into hell?
Speaker C:Jesus, at, somewhere in scripture, went into hell.
Speaker C:He descended.
Speaker C:He went and met the people and said, come on up.
Speaker C:The water's fine up here.
Speaker C:It's better up up here.
Speaker C:But here, that our love goes down into.
Speaker C:You're having a bad experience, a horrible experience.
Speaker C:I'm going to meet you at the level of your human experience and go, come on, let's walk together to something better.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, this is what God does.
Speaker C:Love wins, right?
Speaker C:Love wins.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker A:And so here we go.
Speaker B:The rev is so good at tying everything together.
Speaker C:Sometimes I fail.
Speaker A:I got one more thought.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:And then we're gonna kind of this thing up, and that's this.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:And we really haven't talked a lot about this because it centers on, well, how do you go to heaven and how do you go to hell?
Speaker A:Rob kind of said that a little bit in.
Speaker A:In the video or in the audio clip that we did.
Speaker A:But here's kind of the question.
Speaker A:If we want to look upon going to heaven or going to hell and the components that drive that train, and most of the time, you know, Jesus centers into that and it becomes a belief about Jesus is kind of that.
Speaker A:And again, as Rob was saying, you know, you have a sense of belief that takes you to one place or the other.
Speaker A:But how about this?
Speaker A:If Jesus came to save, right?
Speaker A:A lot of people, you know, believe that, and that's part of the Christian dogma.
Speaker A:How about this?
Speaker A:Did Jesus save us from God or does he save us from ourselves?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Think about that one for a second.
Speaker A:Because as Rob said, what kind of God is that if we need to be saved from that God, right?
Speaker A:I mean, it's, It's.
Speaker A:We screw it up, you know, for the most part, he's.
Speaker A:He's come to give us the ultimate amount of love that helps us stay on the right path, keep.
Speaker A:Keep true.
Speaker C:You know, I have to believe that, you know, in my upbringing, in my Bible study, in the Methodist Church, that Jesus, a man, introduced me to the Christ of all creation, that holy essence of all creation.
Speaker C:And it saved me from myself.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:It saved me from my hellish thinking, my thoughts of separation.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Your little.
Speaker A:Not God, you're small thinking, you know, stinking thinking, like you would say a lot of times, Rob.
Speaker B:Okay, I don't believe we.
Speaker B:I mean, to me, you don't have to be saved from God.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's not, that's not the God I believe in.
Speaker B:And, and I don't.
Speaker B:I don't think Jesus does.
Speaker B:Does that.
Speaker B:I don't think he saves us from a cruel God, but maybe from the own cruelty we inflict upon ourselves and each other.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, especially on each other when we forget who God really is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's when these things can happen.
Speaker A:Consciousness gets.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's why going back to Jesus helps you to remember who God is.
Speaker A:To me, you know?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:You know that old adage I've heard, We're not.
Speaker C:We're not punished for our sins.
Speaker C:We are punished by our sins.
Speaker C:And Jesus rescues me to say I'm not defined by my sins.
Speaker C:I'm not defined by my mistakes.
Speaker C:I'm not defined by your mistakes or your, Your sins.
Speaker C:I'm defined by something higher and greater.
Speaker C:Forgive myself for I didn't know what I was doing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So, you know, we, we get it.
Speaker A:I get it.
Speaker A:We all three get it that, you know, you can go into the Bible and you can pick out certain verses from the Bible, whether from Jesus's lips or write about it or any of the other gospel writers or anything, you know, the epistles.
Speaker A:And you can, you know, you can make a case for the, for the reality that these places actually exist.
Speaker A:But you have to understand Jesus and his character, a lot of that stuff is metaphorical.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's just not meant to be taken literally.
Speaker A:He was trying to make a point.
Speaker A:And so, yes, you can make a case and you can defend maybe some of the stuff that we're talking about.
Speaker A:But all we're asking you to do is just step back from it and read those very same passages.
Speaker A:We're not telling you not to read the Bible, but look at them from a little bit different angle.
Speaker B:Well.
Speaker C:And if your belief system causing you to be a more loving human being, I'm not gonna take that away from you.
Speaker C:Keep being loved, because that's putting you into God's kingdom.
Speaker A:You're already doing it.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:So I don't want to tear down anybody running.
Speaker C:It's just a different idea, different concept.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, okay.
Speaker B:Richard Rohr puts it in a way that I.
Speaker B:I absolutely love.
Speaker A:All right, here we go.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Jesus didn't come to change God's mind about us.
Speaker B:He came to change our mind about God.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:What a great place to land the plane right there, Stu.
Speaker A:I totally agree.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Should we say yes?
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:That'll need to preach.
Speaker C:Richard Rohr.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:So let's see what we got.
Speaker C:Well, go ahead and break another ceiling.
Speaker B:Oh, nice.
Speaker B:Yeah, I kickstarted.
Speaker C:You were the channel.
Speaker C:I had to kick that tractor in.
Speaker A:Boom.
Speaker A:All right, there we are.
Speaker A:All right, we're challenging you here.
Speaker A:It is your ongoing mission, should you choose to accept it, decide to think differently.
Speaker A:And I think that's what this episode was pretty much about.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:At least ponder it.
Speaker A:At least think about it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Then maybe go find some folks that at least think a little bit the way you do or, you know, you can gather in and have a good conversation with.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was gonna say.
Speaker B:Why would you do that?
Speaker B:To have some conversation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Have some talking.
Speaker A:Then you have to strap on the armor because you do have to accept some of your own truth that you can stand with, but at the same time, be open minded.
Speaker A:Something like we're talking about in this episode.
Speaker A:Maybe you consider looking at it a different way.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Then we gotta storm the gates.
Speaker A:Storm our own gates.
Speaker A:Of our own inability to be able to change, to be open, to be all kinds of loving, whatever it might be.
Speaker A:You know, accept our divinity, whatever it might be.
Speaker A:We gotta get rid of that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:And in doing that, as we've already talked in the episode, it'll be catchy, it'll be contagious.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And once all that happens, you will unleash the unthinkable for yourself and for others that will take you to a higher place that can be just absolutely amazing.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Bedazzling.
Speaker A:We've used that word.
Speaker B:Oh, I like that.
Speaker A:All right, so there it is.
Speaker A:Thanks, wise guys.
Speaker A:Yeah, I thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Wisdom.
Speaker A:Wisdom coming from all.
Speaker A:Oh, I just.
Speaker A:I'm sitting here thinking of it.
Speaker A:All right, so thank you.
Speaker A:We want to thank you for listening.
Speaker A:Run, you know, mull over some of this stuff, play it again, let us know how you're feeling, if you got some questions or even whatever it might be.
Speaker A:And, you know, we're happy to respond, but in any event, we hope we brought some value, you know, and you just help you to just exhale a little bit out of all this cosmic stuff.
Speaker A:So again, thanks for listening.
Speaker A:We'll be back next week, so catch us then.
Speaker A:Have a good week.
Speaker A:Take care.
