[Mac]

Welcome to the wise guys, a podcast where we unleash the unthinkable and step over the line to help us see things differently, go to the inside edge to stimulate new thinking and new realities that plan a promise, an alternative and an energized hope. I know that's a mouthful, but that's what we're up to. Okay.

We might even answer some questions that you haven't even thought to ask, and then we know we've got a touchdown. All right. So welcome.

Hi, I'm Mac, your host. And in this episode, we literally just went out and saw some stuff that came across on social media and it had to do with, what did Jesus say? These were things from Jesus' lips.

And we're going to get a little different perspective on that maybe and stimulate some of your thinking, not just about maybe what you might read in the Bible, but we're going to help you maybe apply it to just life in general. It doesn't have to be anything to do with the Bible. So stay tuned.

We're really going to dig into that, the three of us. So, hey guys, Rev. Good to see you, man.

[The Rev]

You gave me the side-eye there. I heard it. It's like, don't get too biblical on this, Rev. You know, let's apply it to life. You've got it. I'm on the right page.

[Coach Stu]

If anybody should, it should be you.

[The Rev]

I don't know. You guys are pretty smart.

[Mac]

Oh, this will be fun.

We're going to have a good time with this one. All right. Hey, Stu.

[Coach Stu]

Hey, how are you guys doing? Coach is in the house. Coach is here.

And I want to say hello to all of you beautiful exotic cocktails out there. We love that you're here. Yes, we do.

[Mac]

Yeah, we do. Thanks for listening in. Tell everybody about us for sure.

And, you know, go to the website and you want to get involved in our cafe conversation. We've got some really cool questions that we'll pose in the cafe about the episode and you can take, get together yourself. If you want to just, you know, ponder the, our questions, you want to give us some feedback, get together with some of your friends.

[The Rev]

I'm going to have to come up with some questions because we haven't gone yet. And I already posed the question. I'm open and receptive to change.

[Mac]

Good, good, good. I'm not saying that some of those weren't good though. Those were good questions.

All right. So join with us as we go on this biblical red letter journey. All right.

And I got a story for you guys. Okay.

[Coach Stu]

Bring it on. Here we go.

[Mac]

It's kind of applicable. No, it's just, it's applicable. We're talking to, they never know what's going to come out of my mouth.

So I got to watch out here. All right. So there's this story about two rabbis.

All right. And every Saturday, man, I mean, every Saturday, these two rabbis would argue about the same passages from the Bible, right? The old Testament, obviously.

All right. And I mean, it was just week after week, they would just be at each other and God's looking down on this every single week. And he's going, man, these guys, are you kidding me?

Come on. Come on. What, what, what?

Finally, he gets so fed up with the banter and with the whole conversation. He goes, comes down and he, he goes to those guys and he says, guys, rabbi, hang on a second. Okay.

You guys need to stop this. I'm getting so tired of this. I'm just going to tell you so that we can resolve it and move on.

And they had a fit. They were like, absolutely not. Don't you dare tell us what it means.

Okay. We love the fact that we got to wrestle with it. All right.

And that we have to just chew on it. And maybe we don't come to a conclusion. So don't you dare give us the truth on these passages.

And I thought that was just a great story to kind of get us into what we're talking about here tonight, because a lot of times we as Christians, especially, but I'm just going to kind of even keep it broader than that. We love to grasp onto our truths.

[Coach Stu]

That's the truth.

[Mac]

All right. I mean, we just hold. So I think I did a meme one time that said, how tightly do you hold onto your, your truths?

Be careful. There's a short distance between white knuckles and bloody ones. Right.

[Coach Stu]

So, you know, I got to tell you, I love that story because we, people always want to know. Right. And I think we miss a lot by knowing sometimes.

[The Rev]

Yeah.

[Coach Stu]

There's a lot of life, a lot of thinking, a lot that just gets missed. And a lot of, and a lot of who you become doesn't happen. If you know.

[Mac]

Yeah.

[Coach Stu]

Sometimes, you know what I mean?

[The Rev]

If I don't embrace the mystery, I'm stuck in a current paradigm that never changes. God just planted my feet and said, I've got the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And then God comes down and puts, has a conversation and we say, get out of the way, God. I've already got the truth. And the universe is tapping you on the shoulder saying, no, no, there's way more pay attention. Get away, God. Yeah. And God shows up in many forms and in many faces.

[Mac]

Well, we're real good at our biases, all of the whole kit and caboodle of us, right?

That we love to confirm and we love to think, keep things comfortable. And we leave just day after day, after day, after day. Well, you know, if you've been listening to us at all, or if this is the first time you're listening to us, that is not where we're going.

All right. And that is absolutely not what we're going to encourage you to do. That the music to our ears, we were talking about this earlier.

Yeah.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah. Is if we hear, I never thought about it like that. Yes.

That's the best. I love being able to say that. Right.

Myself.

[Mac]

Yeah.

[The Rev]

You're a rare bird. And the reality is, I think that's the mystery right there. If more of us just said, I've never thought about it that way, or tell me more, we open up to something so beautiful. We can't even comprehend it.

[Mac]

Right. Right. Right.

What's all the above. And it's not us for us. It's fun.

Right. We love it.

[Coach Stu]

So I have a challenge for the rogues. Yes. Not only in listening to this episode of the podcast, but just over the next week, look for reasons to say that to yourself.

Yeah.

[Mac]

That's awesome.

[Coach Stu]

I never thought about it like that. You don't even have to be in a conversation with anybody. You could be hearing something or hearing a conversation.

You could say, wow, I never thought about it like that before.

[The Rev]

Well, this podcast, is it possible that the people listening can suspend completely any thought of I'm going to be threatened by what somebody just said, that there might be wisdom or a gift or some light that's going to come through. If I can say that as opposed to putting up the wall, you can do it.

[Mac]

Okay.

[Coach Stu]

You can do it. It's a safe place. You can do it. It can be done.

[Mac]

And we'd love for you to share it with us.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, please.

[Mac]

If you do. Okay. Cause that's, that's how we all learn.

We don't have it locked in by any means.

[The Rev]

So every podcast, Mac says something that makes me go, okay, breathe Richard.

[Coach Stu]

Hey, you know, you know, the coach's wisdom is to keep breathing, keep breathing, keep moving.

[Mac]

Yeah. Don't turn blue. Okay.

Please. No, don't go there. All right.

So we're going to go out tonight and we're going to take a posting that was out there on the internet and it has to do with words of Jesus. That's why we titled the episode that we have the red letters. If you're know biblical and you know, that kind of thing, it's the red letters in the Bible. That's what Jesus said. Right. And here's the thing.

Let's just start out with something general. All right. Maybe we don't even have to talk about the Bible yet.

All right. So here's the thing. In a general sense, you're going to run up against stuff, whether it's on the internet, certainly social media, you're having a conversation with somebody at work, doesn't matter.

You're going to be out there and you're going to hear something that you just know is blatantly false. I mean, it just ain't true. Okay.

That's category number one. You know, what do you do with that? Right.

Number two is somebody just has an opinion, right? This is their opinion. They look at it this way.

This is their lens. And you may not agree with it or you may confirm it. All right.

But that's another part that goes into your grid. That's information that comes into you. And how do you disseminate it?

Third one can be that there is an attack or a correction that needs to be made. Okay. Or not needs to be but might be made.

And, you know, how much bandwidth do you really leave? We already talked about this, right? How much bandwidth do you leave that says, I don't agree with that.

I think it's wrong. I'm not so sure. But.

But.

[The Rev]

Well, there's a huge chasm between attack and correction. You know, there's a whole middle ground there between those two polar opposites. Yeah. And I think it's important to recognize that.

[Mac]

Absolutely.

[Coach Stu]

And conversation. Got to add that to it.

[The Rev]

What a concept.

[Coach Stu]

Right.

[Mac]

So, you know, you can react in all these ways. Right. But again, the encouragement is to leave enough bandwidth and to learn relationally that if you have a differing opinion or if you know something, you know, to share it in a way that's loving and to share it in a way that is constructive.

[Coach Stu]

So I just want to share with everybody to pay attention to what triggers you. There's growth there if you pay attention to it.

[Mac]

Right.

[Coach Stu]

Because a lot of times once you get triggered, your your ears get turned off and your brain gets turned off.

[The Rev]

Your heart gets your heart gets turned off.

[Coach Stu]

Right. And you stiff arm. So I just just pay attention to it because it's going to happen. I mean, we get triggered. You have to practice to not get triggered.

[Mac]

Correct.

[Coach Stu]

Right. So just pay attention to good advice, man.

[Mac]

That's good advice. I love it. So.

And so, you know, in all of this, what we tend to want to do as a culture, I'm not going to speak about anybody else but us here. You know, us Americans. Right.

And whether we're in the church or we're not in the church or if people of faith. But we love for there to be in conversation or in perspective, this idea of duality. Now, you may not be real familiar with that term.

Maybe you don't use it all the time. Right. But it's really the idea that it's this and then there's the opposite.

There's the black and then there's the white. All right. There's the in and there's the out.

There's the like us and there's the not like us. Right. I mean, there's this whole idea that, you know, you're with me or you're against me or, you know, that kind of whole dualistic kind of thinking.

[Coach Stu]

So there's typically like opposites.

[Mac]

Yeah.

[Coach Stu]

Is that is that fair to say or no?

[Mac]

Not necessarily. I mean, they can be. But I would think I would look at them more as just you're part of my tribe or you're not.

All right. Or things have to be this way and they can't be both.

[Coach Stu]

Right.

[Mac]

Right. They can't be. It's either and or it's either or instead of and or.

[Coach Stu]

Gotcha.

[The Rev]

Paradox does not exist in that environment. It has to be one or the other. Right. Right. Right.

Right.

[Mac]

It's a dualistic thing where we want to separate stuff out for. I heard this years ago and I thought it was really good. Subconsciously, the way our culture is today, I'm a baby boomer.

Right. And what did I learn when I was in elementary school? They put down a piece of paper in front of me.

Kindergarten, first grade, second grade. And they had all these little pictures. Right.

And then they had a bat and they had a ball and they had a duck and they had whatever. And what were you tasked to do? You were tasked to choose the one that's not like the others.

[Coach Stu]

That's fun.

[The Rev]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong.

[Mac]

Okay, there he is, the musician.

[Coach Stu]

Sounds like the Rev was there with you.

[Mac]

But I mean, think about that from a psychological, deep-seated, when you go through years of learning and that's the way you were taught to learn, to distinguish that one is different than all the other ones.

[Coach Stu]

So you're looking for what's different instead of looking for what's the same.

[Mac]

Exactly. Exactly. Think about that if you just turned it around.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, just flip it.

[The Rev]

Early entrenchment in compartmentalization to keep ourselves safe. What if everything belonged? Let's think outside the box. What if everything belonged? You're going to get an F in the class, of course, but in life, maybe you're going to get an F on earth school because of the paradigm that's currently driving the planet.

[Mac]

Yes.

[The Rev]

Let's just go outside the box and say, what if everybody belongs? Every opinion has value. Even if I know that it's wrong in my world, I don't know.

[Mac]

Yeah, that's a tough one.

[Coach Stu]

So I know we need to get to the things that Jesus did not say, et cetera. Right. But I'm asking for permission to make one point based on your story of when you were a kid in school.

[Mac]

Okay. Yeah.

[Coach Stu]

So this is what I would like to see people do. All of you beautiful exotic cocktails out there is instead of looking for what's different in one another, look for what's the same. Even if you don't think, especially if you look at somebody and think there is absolutely nothing the same between the two of us.

[Mac]

Yeah.

[Coach Stu]

I guarantee you there's some look deep. You just have to look and find it. So that's, I know I'm giving a lot of homework this week, this podcast, but that's another thing to do this way.

[Mac]

You can, you can just start at the fact that there were both human beings.

[Coach Stu]

There you go. Okay. Let's just, so let's, let's do something a little bit more than that. That's easy. That's an easy way out.

[Mac]

There is commonality though.

[Coach Stu]

That's true.

[The Rev]

And you have to seek to understand in order to get there. You've got to seek to put your ears on before you open your mouth.

[Mac]

Yeah.

[The Rev]

Give your heart access to this other person before you turn your brain on to start judging them.

[Coach Stu]

Here we go.

[Mac]

Oh gosh, Rev. The Rev speaks. All right.

[The Rev]

You're the one giving homework.

[Speaker 4]

I mean, that's the story of my life. No respect.

[Mac]

I just don't get it, man. I just don't get it.

[Coach Stu]

Oh my gosh.

[Mac]

That's awesome. Oh Lord. Yeah, I'm right there with you, Rodney.

Okay. So, so we're going to get into it now. We're going to kind of get into the theological part of this.

We've kind of talked a little bit more in general and lifestyle. And I think all those things are really very important.

[Coach Stu]

Yes.

[Mac]

And I will say this, and maybe I can kind of frame this and where we're going around a general idea that I have that I've experienced anyway. You know, how can I say, but in my Christianity for many years, we tended to fear culture's influence on theology, right? So the culture was always the bad guy, right?

We can't let culture influence us. We have to stand apart from it, you know?

[The Rev]

We locked the church doors to evolution getting in.

[Mac]

That might be a meme.

[Coach Stu]

I was going to say, there's a meme in there.

[Mac]

I love that. We've locked the church doors to the... To letting evolution in.

Letting evolution in.

[The Rev]

Yes.

[Mac]

Hello. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You just went down to chase a squirrel, but I think everybody needs to pay attention.

Does your religion, does your theology evolve? Oh, there's a great question, brother.

[The Rev]

Collectively and individually. The church is in my head. Have I locked the doors to my head?

[Mac]

Ah.

[Coach Stu]

So let me, let me phrase it in a coach stew, for a coach stew to be able to understand it. Okay. Does your view on God change as you experience life?

You know, like I know my view of God when I was a kid is different than today and that's okay. I mean, cause I'm different and I know different things than when, than, you know, so.

[Mac]

Well, and not only does life experience teach you different things that you didn't know then, but also we would like to think, and we would like to think that this podcast is helping you evolve your consciousness as well to where this unseen, the unspoken, the mystery is, as Rev was talking about earlier, begins to become part of the equation.

[The Rev]

So my thirst, my thirst to know God becomes more potent and powerful than my fear of what is out there.

[Mac]

Oh, and a lot of times it's the fear of getting it wrong.

You know, what if?

[The Rev]

Or being proven wrong. What if the culture out there is going to prove that what I've believed for the last 60 years is wrong.

[Mac]

Right.

[The Rev]

Oh no, I'll just lock the doors and live under my delusion.

[Mac]

Cause I like my, uh, issues.

[Coach Stu]

I like my issues just the way they are. Think about all those people that believe the world was flat. And I'm not sailing that ship down in that ocean cause I'm going to go off the edge.

And all of a sudden the world got turned, you know, turned around.

[Mac]

And there's a zillion examples of that.

[The Rev]

It took a lot of courage and risk to do that, but I think religion has to risk a little bit.

[Coach Stu]

So that seems silly, right? To say today. I agree.

Because of what we know, but there was a time where people didn't know that. So that's what I'm talking about. Like evolution happens in what we know and what we think.

You know, why would we not see things or have a different relationship maybe in this day and age with God than maybe back, let's say before Jesus was on the earth.

[The Rev]

Or have we become the two rabbis that are having an argument?

[Mac]

We love our argument in our debate.

[Coach Stu]

Don't tell us God. Don't tell us.

[The Rev]

God, will you go away? We're having an argument right now. We don't need your truth.

[Coach Stu]

We like our banter.

[Mac]

We like our banter.

[Coach Stu]

We're going to harmonize it next time.

[Mac]

That's the other side of that. That's good. So there we are, guys.

roguers, listen to this. I mean, I hope you're getting the nugget here that says we have had to this point right now, this moment, culturally as well as individually, an understanding of God. It is for you, whatever it is.

It is for your tribe or whatever you run in, your church, your religion, whatever it might be.

[The Rev]

And it's beautiful. It's holy. It's necessary. It's important. We're not asking you to throw it away, but just open it up a little bit.

[Mac]

That's what Jesus did. He took Jewish theology, right, and he didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but he just said it's time to think higher. It's time to think in a different way now.

[The Rev]

He clearly said it. I'm not here to abolish what you've been believing. I'm here to fulfill it.

[Mac]

Exactly. So we pulled this off the internet. Somebody had written a thing that this baby said things, five things that Jesus did not say.

So this person debunked what culture a lot of times is what I'm taking, where do they get this from, and then gave the what he did say, all right? And so what we want to offer is a challenge that might say, and the Rev brought this up earlier. This was a great perspective that I hadn't even thought about.

[The Rev]

It happens once in a while.

[Mac]

No, man, it was awesome. He said, well, maybe neither one of them or maybe both of them isn't necessarily really what he said.

Well, how about that one, okay? Even though this person might have pulled a red letter out of their Bible, can you be open to the possibility that maybe that isn't exactly what he said 2,000 years ago, and then grid that? I mean, again, we're not going to say it doesn't have value.

But, you know, I mean, hold it a little more loosely. So let's just start it.

[The Rev]

If we get stuck on words and we miss the intent. There you go. Then we're going to be the rabbis arguing.

[Mac]

Right, right.

[Coach Stu]

So are you going to say these five things and then we talk about them? Or are we going to go one at a time?

[Mac]

We're going to go one at a time.

[Coach Stu]

All right, let's do it.

[Mac]

So number one, okay, Jesus did not say, according to this person, follow your heart.

What he did say was, follow me. Okay, so now think about that for just a second. Jesus did not say, follow your heart.

He said, follow me. Now, what do we do with that? Okay, how do we grid that?

First of all, the red letters in most people's Bible anyway would acknowledge that he did say, follow me. You know, that's what we get out of today's translation and interpretation of the Bible. You know, for the most part, right?

I mean, I, you know, I'm not going to, that's pretty common. Follow me.

[Coach Stu]

You know, Jesus did talk about the heart in the Bible. So it, and I, the way I look at something like this is I try to imagine that, like, I'm walking with Jesus, like he's here, it's as real as you two are sitting in front of me. And like, of course, you guys would say to me, yeah, follow your heart.

Like, I believe Jesus would think and say that too. Whether it was specifically written down or not, I think he wants that for us. He wants, he places an importance on the heart in our relationship with God.

So why would he not want us to follow it?

[Mac]

That's a pretty good line.

[The Rev]

The heart being the center of love. And he talked about love. And if you draw that parallel, yeah, he said it over and over and over again in one form or another. And if we have a personal relationship, you know, I break it down. Jesus was a man. And then there was a Christ essence. When he's saying, follow me, he's speaking from the Christ. I have a personal relationship with that energy, that power. And that power tells me all the time, follow your heart. It also says, follow me. It makes less difference what he's talking about because it's all the same thing. It's the same principle and idea that means let love lead.

[Mac]

Right.

[The Rev]

He lived from love and he talked from love. And that's where we know the heart exists, is in love. Then do that.

[Mac]

Well, don't create this dualistic thinking.

Oh, heart here, Jesus here. And it's so easy to do because we're going to compartmentalize it. And I've always said this for years, that we have taken Jesus's divinity and sacrificed his humanity on the altar of his divinity.

I mean, I love to say things like, are you Christian? Well, I am on the way of the way of Jesus of Nathareth, okay? That his way, follow what?

Follow him. Follow him in his way. So again, we're going to try to bring these together to say we don't have dualistic.

Everything that we're going to talk about is relevant.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, everything.

[Mac]

We're not debunking any of these, all right?

[The Rev]

If somebody has read the words of Jesus and maybe remember them incorrectly, who is following their heart and doing great, tremendous things to create love on the planet, how dare I say, well, you're wrong. You're bad. You got it all screwed up. You need to do it differently. The reading of the word, whatever they got was the message they needed, and they're bringing value to the planet. Let me encourage it and not knock it down. Absolutely. Both and, not either or.

[Mac]

There it is, both and. Wasn't that? There it is.

[Coach Stu]

Amen, yeah.

[Mac]

Okay? And again, we've got to stop all this separation out there all the time.

It's not what God wants, in my opinion, for sure, because he talks so much about oneness. I mean, that's just so prevalent.

[The Rev]

What he didn't say was worship me. I want to get real clear about that. It says follow me.

[Coach Stu]

Follow, yeah.

[Mac]

Yeah, there it goes. All right, so that was number one. Jesus didn't say follow your heart.

He said follow me. Let's go to number two. Jesus did not say be true to yourself.

What he said was whoever wants to be my disciple must deny himself. Got that? But now, hey, let me just back up a little bit here.

We're going to put this in the episode notes, all right, these five things, and both comments on them, so just know that if you need to, you can go back to reference them in the notes. So be true to yourself. Know whoever wants to be my disciple must deny himself.

Yes.

[Coach Stu]

What are you thinking? Yeah, so what is being true to yourself? To me, it's behaving in accordance with your beliefs and values, doing what you think is right.

Like that's being authentic. That's believing in yourself. But check this out.

This is the meme. You ready? Rev's got one.

I need one. So Jesus's call to deny oneself and follow him is an invitation to be true to yourself by following him.

[Mac]

Oh, see, they're one and the same. They're not mutually exclusive. Is that what you're trying to say here, Stu?

[Coach Stu]

Yes, yes.

[Mac]

I love it.

[The Rev]

That'll fly.

[Mac]

That's right.

That'll preach, won't it?

[The Rev]

You know, when we're talking about self, you got to draw, once again, I'm going to go back to Jesus, the man, a lowercase s, self, his personality. He had that. He got that freedom set. There is also the capital S, the big S, self, I like to say. That's the Christ. I have that, too. And so when I'm being asked to deny myself, it's deny the personality, the ego, the small part of myself that is private good, and get in touch with the capital S, self, the Christ is saying, follow this. Follow this example. Come with me, which is the Christ, which is the essence of the light, the love, the spirit, the God essence that's in, through, and around all creation, not just Jesus. Okay, the lightning's going to hit me. Not just Jesus, but the Christ is inviting me into an experience of the Christ that's existing at this table right now.

[Mac]

Absolutely. You know, we have talked about this on previous episodes, and we'll continue to talk about it because we believe in it so deeply that we have the Christ essence within. Jesus said it.

Okay, I mean, it's not like we're making it up, all right? We have it. It's part of us.

So myself, to be true to myself is to be true to my Christ essence.

[The Rev]

Your capital S, self, your big S, self.

[Mac]

Not the egoic self, exactly.

[Coach Stu]

Deny.

[Mac]

It's an evolution, you know? Okay, yeah. So anyway, that's another way to look at it.

Think about it. What we've got to stop doing is taking this theology that really kind of started with Augustine and deride ourself, our humanity, and us as people, and human beings, and continue to put us down there lower than whale dung, all right? That's just not the case, but we live in that place, and so we grit our theology through it all the time.

So with that, I'm going to let you think about it. I'm going to tease you a little bit here because we've got three more of them, and we're going to get through, hopefully. I'm going to take a little break, and then we're going to come back and talk about living your truth, and how about believing in yourself, and as long as you are happy.

Think about those things. We're going to come back. We'll be right back.

[Mac]

All right, welcome back to the Wise Guys podcast, and where we've been talking about five things that somebody said Jesus didn't say, and then gave some alternatives to what he did, and we're kind of just fleshing a few of those out. So we've already been through a couple of them. Let's go to the third one now.

And here's what Jesus did not say. He did not say, believe in yourself. What he said was, believe in me.

[Coach Stu]

Okay.

[Mac]

Okay, do not, uh-uh, you cannot believe in yourself, you need to believe in me.

[The Rev]

So, who is the me, or what is the me that he's referring to?

[Mac]

Uh-huh, okay.

[The Rev]

Is it a man?

[Coach Stu]

Interesting.

[The Rev]

Is it a personality, a man who walked the planet, or is it something higher and greater?

[Coach Stu]

Well, I think it's faith in his teachings, in Jesus' teachings, and developing a personal relationship with him. I think that's what he means by that, and in turn, you get to be transformed. I mean, that's how I see follow, or, sorry.

[Mac]

Well, what are the ways that maybe that first statement might hold some truth?

[Coach Stu]

Believe in yourself?

[Mac]

Yeah, what are some ways that we can get tripped up a little bit, where we are placing too much emphasis, maybe, on ourself, or we're believing in our abilities that aren't there necessarily, we're believing in our capacity to do certain things, to do good, maybe? I mean, where could a false belief in ourself come from?

[The Rev]

Well, you know, the coach said it'd have a personal relationship. I'm having a personal relationship with an essence and a power, not a man, not Jesus, but the essence, and he's asking me to follow that essence within me, and not the lowercase S self of me, but the big S self. I wanna have a personal relationship, and I want to believe in that part of me that absolutely is above the thoughts, above the history, above anything I've ever believed.

[Mac]

Yeah, hello.

[The Rev]

There's two parts of us, a human and a spiritual. We're both, and he's pointing us in the direction of our spirit.

[Coach Stu]

I talk about this a lot in coaching, especially with the young ones that I have, about believing in yourself, and I always tell them, beginning of the season, I'm gonna help you do things you don't even know you can do, right, and think in ways you don't even know that you can think, and to me, this is what, like Jesus does this for us.

[Mac]

The spirit.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, for sure. So, of course, he may not have specifically said, believe in yourself, but this is what he's teaching us to do.

[Mac]

Right. Well, and I think he's also, though, when he does say, believe in me, that what gets shed, Rev's already said it, is the ego, and so we certainly can go to a place where we believe too much in our posturing, in our egoic self, in our, you know, all of that kind of place that goes to a darkness that it's difficult then to accept the Christ essence, you know, that we've gotta overcome some of those tendencies, and it's a process. You know, it's a transformation.

I think you use that word, Stu.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, it's a transformation, yeah.

[The Rev]

Your students that you're coaching have a finite ability to wrestle. You get them in touch with something that they've never done before. That's the Christ, that's the power, that's the potential and the possibility.

That's what Jesus is doing. He's the coach saying, you're not defined by your limitations. Over and over again, you're not defined by the malady or the leprosy or the blindness.

You're defined by what I see in you, and he's saying, elevate your consciousness and your focus. That's what you're doing for the wrestlers. Then they suddenly do things they couldn't do before.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, for sure.

[Mac]

That's the or better thing, right?

[The Rev]

With God, all things are possible, so look at the God self, not the human self.

[Mac]

I love it, man, you're right, you're right.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, Jesus can see the potential in us that we just can't even see. Of course. And it's okay, we don't see it.

This is part of living life, but he helps us to get there. Sure. To see something higher for ourselves.

[The Rev]

Yeah, we have to believe in it, him.

[Mac]

Yeah, so that's okay. I mean, again, what we're showing or what we're trying to get across, if hopefully this is coming across, is that it's all true, right? All of these things, there aren't, this one's not and this one is, right?

They all go together, right? They're not mutually exclusive.

[The Rev]

I gotta believe in all parts of me so I can achieve. And when I believe in all parts and aspects of me, suddenly I do more than I ever thought was possible.

[Mac]

Amen, man. There it is. There's the call to action.

We haven't even got there yet, but that's the call to action. All right, so five things, that's number three, all right? Number four, Jesus did not say, live your truth.

What he did say was, I am the truth. Jesus did not say, live your truth. He said, I am the truth.

[Coach Stu]

That seems like a newer phrase, doesn't it? Like in, like I'm thinking a couple hundred years ago, you didn't hear that, like live your truth. That seems like something newer to like our generation.

You know what I mean? Yeah, dude.

[The Rev]

Live your truth, dude.

[Coach Stu]

Some surfer said it somewhere.

[Mac]

Yeah, I think it was a Woodstock.

[Coach Stu]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I mean this, you know, living your truth to me just, I think encourages people to be more authentic.

You know, that's what that means to me and really kind of accept yourself.

[Mac]

Right.

[Coach Stu]

You know, I mean, that's what it's all about. And to be, to me, to be authentic, I say this all the time, is you gotta be vulnerable.

[Mac]

Right.

[Coach Stu]

To be authentic.

[Mac]

Well, again, where does a lot of this, from this person, but I guarantee you, this person isn't alone, all right? Where a lot of this comes from is fear. There's a fear factor built into, for instance, oh, danger, Will Robinson, you can't live your truth because it's corrupted, because it's gonna take you to a bad place.

It's not godly, it's your making up what you think is the truth. And that's not what God had in mind because it's not in the Bible or whatever it might be, right? I mean, this is where this is grounded, all right?

So let's just understand the fear that we might have in there that if, can I trust me living my truth?

[The Rev]

You know, he said he was the light of the world. Yeah. And then he told us we were the light of the world.

So he's saying here, I am the truth, I am the light, but he also says, and so are you. So that truth that is stirring those ideas and those notions and possibilities that stir within you, that's a direct relationship with the Christ. And I draw that distinction.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but you gotta look at, separate the man from the essence.

[Mac]

That horse ain't dead, don't worry.

[The Rev]

I'm gonna ride it until I die.

But the reality is he's saying, go ahead and live your light. Yes. Live your truth.

He's saying it's implied, it's implicit in his, I am the truth.

[Mac]

Well, where does your truth come from? That's right.

[The Rev]

It comes from my heart, following my heart. It comes from the presence of the Christ that he pointed me towards that lives within me.

[Mac]

Hello, are you guys getting this? Hey, hello out there.

[The Rev]

I don't know, Stu's shaking his head.

[Mac]

Hello. You're getting it out there, all right? You're picking up on the theme here, right?

All right, come on. Come with us, right? Stu, you got anything?

[Coach Stu]

I'm with it. My head's exploding at the moment. There's an explosion going on.

It's all good, yeah.

[Mac]

Yes. So again, we think we're gonna say to you that yes, he's the truth, but we're also living that truth, which is my truth, okay? Same, same, right?

Tomato, tomato, all right, all right. So that was number four, correct?

[Coach Stu]

Yes.

[Mac]

Last one, here we go. Oh, this is a good one. Jesus did not say, oh, as long as you are happy.

Okay, here's a cultural problem going on right there. What he did say was, what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul?

[Coach Stu]

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[Mac]

So God got nothing to do with our happiness, I guess. That's so according to this, anyway. So here we go, all right?

I think Stu was saying earlier, okay, if I was walking with Jesus and we were just kind of hanging, man, and we were having a burger and a fry and whatever it might be, whatever we were doing, and you looked at him and you said, hey, hey, can I ask you a question, man? Can I ask you a question? Do you want me to be happy?

[Coach Stu]

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[Mac]

I mean, is that part of the deal here, or what's going on?

[Coach Stu]

I heard Jesus say yes when that question came up. He wants us to be happy.

[Mac]

Yeah, okay.

[The Rev]

He might tell you to be happy, but eat something different than a hamburger.

[Mac]

That might be true, too, yeah. Hamburgers make me happy.

[Coach Stu]

I get the comparison, because whoever wrote this is wanting to put value on your soul, right? And there is value in that.

And so I think they're assuming to me that if you're doing what makes you happy, that's not good for your soul. And I wouldn't say that that's true, right? If you're doing all the other things we talked about, following Jesus, et cetera, following him, and if you're living that kind of a life of what makes you happy will fulfill your soul, right?

[Mac]

True, yeah.

[The Rev]

You know, I draw a really clear distinction between happiness and joy. And I think when Jesus, when we're looking at these scriptures, he wants joy, which is not circumstantial. Happiness is circumstantial.

I eat a hamburger, I like it, it tastes good, I'm happy. I don't like it, I'm unhappy. You know, happiness is a very human condition.

Joy is a relational, so it's one circumstantial. Happiness is circumstantial. If things match up the way I want them, I'm happy.

But if I have a relationship with that, the essence that Jesus is pointing me towards, the Christ, that's joy. No matter how you show up, no matter how good the meal is or bad the meal is, I am connected to something far greater than this experience.

[Mac]

Yeah, that's a great distinction. I like that. That's really good.

So again, they're not mutually exclusive, but they're different, right? And so just understand that there's a deeper-seated, spiritual cultivation, and then there's like, as Rev says, a situational, right? But again, if Jesus really said those words, what will it profit a man if he gains the world but loses his soul?

What's he saying there?

[The Rev]

It's the happiness. I've got all the happiness in the world, but I've lost my soul to get it because I don't have the joy, the connection to something greater.

[Mac]

Yes, okay, it's a caution against.

[Coach Stu]

You can look at it like worldly possessions, like you have everything, or even achievements that you have in life. But if you did that and sacrificed maybe who you are, your character, the things that make up your soul, you know who you are.

[Mac]

There's a good caution here.

[The Rev]

I loved watching the Olympics this week, and there were athletes that did not get the gold, but they, for the sheer joy of being involved in the sport and the competition and the camaraderie with the competitors, they were smiling from ear to ear with a bronze medal. I was here. I had the experience.

That's joy. I didn't win the gold. Oh, I'm unhappy.

Yeah, I wish I had, but there's a huge distinction to be made there.

[Coach Stu]

Well, they're looking at what truly matters to them, right?

[Mac]

I think we did a meme one time that said, you gotta look past what happens to what matters, right? So again, take the caution. Jesus said it, and that was for a reason.

It's there for a reason, and accept it and understand it, but grid it in such a way that flows around and through your joy and your happiness, right? And however you wanna, you know, look at those, like Rev made a great point there.

[The Rev]

Both hand. Yeah, right, right. I believe God's will, the Christ's will, Jesus's will is for me to be happy and joyous and fulfilled at all times.

[Mac]

Amen. Let's just drop the mic right there.

[The Rev]

Let me have a hamburger.

There you go, you can have a hamburger. I'm gonna get Jesus to talk to my doctor, though.

[Mac]

Yeah, right, yeah. Talk to my wife. That's what's gonna get me, okay?

[Coach Stu]

Maybe he can change that hamburger into something healthy.

[Mac]

Yeah, like a bean burger.

[Coach Stu]

You know?

[Mac]

Yeah, okay.

[The Rev]

Turning hamburgers into wine.

[Mac]

Good stuff, guys. Those were the five, okay?

Those were the five. I'm just gonna go real quick. Don't follow your heart.

Don't be true to yourself. Don't believe in yourself. Don't live your truth, and you can't, you know, it's not about your happiness, okay?

Those were the no-no's, all right? And all we were saying is, match them up with the yeses, with the attaboys that the person put in there, and treat it all as one. It all works.

We don't have to separate anything out, you know? So, you know, we're gonna take our little triad perspective. As we talk a lot of time about Maverick, Mystic, and Mentor, right?

And so, how would we look at the Maverick in this? Do you ever think outside the box? Do you ever think outside of what you read in your norm, you know, the blue pill?

Have a Maverick mentality that goes there.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, every day.

[Mac]

Right?

[Coach Stu]

Every day.

[Mac]

That just says, wait a minute, I hadn't thought about it that way. Let me listen to something I haven't listened to before. Let me talk to somebody I haven't.

So be the Maverick.

[Coach Stu]

I question everything, not to question everything, but because it always leads to my growth, my spiritual growth, and just my growth in general. So, I mean, why wouldn't I do that?

[Mac]

Well, that's because you're a Maverick, Stu.

[Coach Stu]

There you go.

[Mac]

That is a part Maverick, okay. How about Mystic? Where's the Holy Spirit involved in all this? The answer is?

[Coach Stu]

In all of it? Everywhere.

[Mac]

Everywhere.

[Coach Stu]

Yeah, in all of it. In all of it. Right.

[The Rev]

Tapping us on the shoulder as two rabbis arguing. The Holy Spirit's here going, can I get a word in as well?

[Mac]

That's great advice. Boy, that's great advice. Can the Holy Spirit get a word in edgewise in your conversations? I think about that.

[The Rev]

Holy Spirit, have your people call my people.

[Mac]

I love that. There's gonna be a meme in there somewhere too, okay.

So there's the Mystic part. How about the Mentor part? How about can we apply mentorship to this whole thing, maybe in greater understanding, offering grace to other people and deeper love to one another and encouraging that, not only in ourself and developing it, but then being a light and exemplifying that and being, what do we call it?

Being God's distribution center of love, right? That's kind of our purpose, okay.

[The Rev]

Jesus is my great master teacher. That's how I see him. And he said as much with his actions as he did with his words.

So he may not be in the red letter version, but it's something he did that spoke and taught way more. And he absolutely demonstrated following his heart. He demonstrated being true to himself.

So look at his actions because there are things that are more powerful. The loudest voice in the room is not necessarily the most powerful. Watch people, pay attention.

That's what the Mentor does. Watch me. That's what the coach does.

Let me show you as opposed to just telling you.

[Mac]

Okay, Rev, I got it. Yeah, you got my head exploding right now, just like happens with Stu a lot of the time. That's beautiful.

[Coach Stu]

I love it.

[Mac]

That is so good.

[Coach Stu]

That's perfect.

[Mac]

And that's a good thing to end on right there. Okay, so there it is. We look good stuff tonight, guys.

[Coach Stu]

Oh, yeah.

[Mac]

Thank you. Thank you both.

[Coach Stu]

Great, great conversation.

[Mac]

Thank you for listening.

We hope you'll wrestle with some of this. Go out there to the questions like I was talking about before. Sign up on the website, become a member of the cafe.

And we'd love to hear from you whatever discussions you might be having about some of this kind of stuff because we all grow from it.

[The Rev]

You wanna tell us what's coming up? Is there anything coming up that might be juicy?

[Mac]

Gee, I think next week. Next week, we're diving into the pond and we don't normally do this.

e're gonna talk about Project: 2025

And here's, just understand this, though. I'm gonna tease you just a little bit. We're not gonna go through it and say, oh, that's good. Oh, no, that's bad.

[Coach Stu]

We're not going point by point.

[Mac]

No, yeah. We're not doing it on 400 and something.

[The Rev]

It would be an eight hour podcast.

[Mac]

Yeah, that's not gonna be the intent of that, all right? So I'm just, gotta come back to find out what the intent is, right? So listen to us next week, all right?

Have a great week. Thanks, guys. We love y'all.

Take care.