Love Wins: Rethinking Heaven and Hell
Exploring the multifaceted concept of love from a theological perspective, the podcast delves into the core ideas presented in Rob Bell's influential book, "Love Wins." The hosts engage in a thought-provoking dialogue about how our perception of God shapes our understanding of love and vice versa. They emphasize that beliefs matter profoundly; the way we view the divine influences not only our spiritual journey but also our relationships with others.
Central to the discussion is the assertion that eternal life begins in the present, challenging conventional notions of heaven and hell. The conversation draws on the idea that transformation and restoration, rather than condemnation, are at the heart of a loving God’s intentions. The hosts share personal anecdotes and reflections that underscore the power of love to heal and connect, even in the face of trauma and adversity. As they grapple with complex theological questions, they invite listeners to reconsider their own beliefs and explore how love can transcend boundaries and foster deeper connections with all of humanity.
Takeaways:
- The idea that we shape our understanding of God significantly influences our beliefs and actions.
- Eternal life is not a distant goal; it begins in the present moment.
- The concept of love as a transformative power can heal deep wounds and foster forgiveness.
- Rob Bell's book challenges traditional views of hell, suggesting a God of love is not punitive.
- True love transcends conditions, allowing for compassion even towards those who have wronged us.
- Understanding God as love requires us to embrace questions and seek deeper truths.
- Links referenced in this episode:
- Promo video: https://youtu.be/is0AUGhf9n4?si=WSGi9j_2hN9VPQCg
- gorogue.life
- robbell.com
- lovewins.com
Transcript
I love where you can bring in, upon occasion, some other perspectives from a religious standpoint or a philosophical standpoint.
Rev:Yeah, I don't want to be defined as the Rev title.
Rev:I'm a person.
Rev:Yeah.
Mac:I mean, so just, you know, those are great shares.
Mac:And then, you know, we'll sometimes come from a more Christian perspective, especially if we're going to quote.
Coach Stu:We all have more information.
Coach Stu:Just like when you call me a coach.
Host:That's A taste of Love wins this week's episode of the Wise Guy Guys, a podcast that unleashes the unthinkable in culture, religion, business, and everyday life.
Host:This week, the guys tackle a sensitive topic about God's character relating to heaven and hell.
Host:So it's time to step over the line, strap in and see if you are willing to let Mac the Rev and Coach Stu take you to a place of thinking differently.
Mac:Welcome to the Wise Guys, a podcast where we unleash the unthinkable, step over the line, and help us to see things differently as we go to the inside edge.
Mac:And hi, I'm Mac.
Mac:I'm your host.
Mac:And in this episode, guess what, Brothers Love wins.
Mac:Pretty strong statement, right?
Mac:But we're going to look at that truth through a few lenses and try to pull some wise perspective to it.
Mac:So the wise guys are in the house.
Mac:Coast do.
Coach Stu:Hey, Mac, how you doing?
Coach Stu:It's good to see you.
Mac:Same here.
Rev:The coach is Mr.
Rev:Love himself.
Coach Stu:I am exuding love tonight.
Rev:Kindness, compassion, humility, and gentleness.
Mac:And we got the Rev.
Rev:I'm here all about love.
Rev:I've been looking forward to this one for a while.
Mac:Oh, very good.
Mac:We're gonna have some fun to see you both, as always, man.
Mac:It's great to see you guys.
Mac:So how's our gang doing out there?
Mac:What do you think, Stu?
Mac:Yeah, the cocktails, man.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:How about all those people out there?
Coach Stu:All of you out there.
Coach Stu:Hello to all of you beautiful, exotic cocktails.
Coach Stu:Spit it out there.
Coach Stu:The love is.
Coach Stu:It's got me tongue tied.
Coach Stu:The love has got me tongue tied.
Mac:He's just.
Coach Stu:I love all of you out there.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Rev:Some new cocktails that are tuning in.
Rev:I talked to two and three people this week that said, man, I like what you're.
Rev:You're putting out there.
Rev:I'm gonna tell my friends.
Mac:So welcome to.
Rev:Anybody who's new is listening.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:If this is your first time and this is awesome, welcome.
Coach Stu:We see you.
Mac:I like.
Mac:That's right.
Rev:Welcome to the Love again.
Mac:All right.
Mac:And you know, one thing I wanted to add this week, too.
Mac:I was.
Mac:I was out on our website the other day, and if you've been listening to us, fantastic.
Mac:If you've never been out to the website, I would ask you to go on out there to the homepage.
Mac:At the bottom of our homepage, we've got some sort of.
Mac:Just some of our favorite reads.
Mac:Oh, yeah.
Mac:Some of our favorite books that we've read.
Rev:Favorite reads.
Rev:But, you know, you've got some blogs on there as well that are pretty amazing.
Rev:Mac, you're an amazing writer.
Mac:Yeah, they're pretty fun.
Mac:You know, we were just talking about that earlier.
Mac:Sometimes I'll read them and I'll go, who wrote that?
Mac:Oh, I guess that was me.
Mac:How about that?
Mac:Wow.
Mac:But, yes, thank you for the compliment, Rev.
Mac:And we just love for you to come out, go out the website and see what we're thinking, see what we're reading, see what we're doing in addition to the episodes here and give us some feedback.
Mac:If you like it or if a book happened to have just floated your boat and change your life in any way, let us know.
Coach Stu:Yeah, we want to hear about it.
Coach Stu:That's how sometimes I get new books to read.
Mac:Absolutely.
Mac:Absolutely.
Rev:Well, if you like it, I want to know if you don't like it, because then it's a new perspective bringing.
Rev:Coming into our little pot here.
Rev:And I think it's good to hear what your.
Rev:Your views are.
Mac:I love it.
Rev:They don't have to agree with everything we say.
Coach Stu:No, this is true.
Mac:This is very good.
Mac:Thanks for.
Coach Stu:That's a form of love we may be coming to later on in this house.
Rev:It could be.
Mac:You're okay.
Mac:I'm okay.
Mac:I'm okay.
Mac:You're okay.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:So what we're saying is, if you don't agree with us, then we don't love you.
Coach Stu:No, no, I said we do love you.
Mac:Anyway, he's my brother.
Mac:Yeah, okay.
Mac:So.
Mac:So, anyway, that's just an encouragement going out there.
Mac:Look at it.
Mac:All right?
Mac:As we do every week, we've got some words to the wise.
Coach Stu:Oh, yeah, another sign.
Mac:And this is from a sign, a church sign right here.
Mac:We'd say more.
Mac:Same old.
Mac:All right.
Mac:And here's what it said.
Mac:Just love everyone.
Mac:I'll sort them out later.
Mac:God.
Coach Stu:Okay, so that's God saying God.
Rev:Signed God.
Rev:Yours true.
Mac:Signed God.
Mac:Just love everyone.
Mac:I'll sort them out later.
Mac:Signed God.
Mac:All right.
Mac:All right, guys.
Mac:All right, wise guys, go ahead.
Mac:I'm opening the floor.
Mac:What are you thinking?
Rev:You know, I've been Going first the last couple of times.
Rev:Let me hear what you guys have to say.
Coach Stu:You know what's interesting about this?
Coach Stu:I actually heard this said God said this to me.
Mac:Oh, he did?
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:All right.
Coach Stu:He said this.
Coach Stu:So I'm with it.
Coach Stu:I mean, this is, like, high on my list.
Coach Stu:So what would that be?
Coach Stu:A plus three?
Mac:Well, plus three, if you feel that good about it.
Coach Stu:Just love everyone.
Coach Stu:Let God serve sorted out.
Coach Stu:I'm not here to sort anybody out, to judge anybody.
Coach Stu:I'm just here to love people, just love them.
Mac:That's a good default, isn't it?
Mac:It's good default.
Rev:All right, all right, Mac, what about you?
Mac:Me?
Mac:You know, here's the thing.
Mac:I'm going to give this a zero.
Rev:Well, welcome to my world.
Rev:You know, I'm getting an iron.
Coach Stu:The rev is having an impact on you.
Mac:But here's why.
Rev:Here's why.
Mac:You see, I love the first part of it.
Mac:Just love everybody, man.
Mac:Just like sue was saying.
Mac:Just love everybody.
Mac:Forget about all the rest of it.
Mac:Okay, but the second half.
Mac:So I'm like, plus three on that.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:But then when it comes to the second half of that, there's a sorting still.
Mac:You know, there's.
Mac:And there's still this idea that we're going to sort them out.
Coach Stu:I hear you.
Coach Stu:And I.
Coach Stu:And I heard that, or I read that differently, but I hear what you're saying.
Coach Stu:It sounds like you're going to say, okay, you people over here, you people over there, some of you people over here.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:I think God is just saying that because we.
Coach Stu:That's what some people need to hear here.
Mac:Oh, well, maybe you're right.
Coach Stu:You know, he needs.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:And so that.
Mac:Yeah, well.
Rev:And then you're going to have the rev perspective, which is completely different.
Coach Stu:Negative three.
Coach Stu:Negative three.
Coach Stu:Here we go.
Rev:It's a total positive three.
Rev:It is a plus three.
Rev:But I take the whole idea of God as a personality separating people.
Rev:I like to look at it as karma.
Rev:It's law.
Rev:God as law.
Rev:You're.
Rev:And that's the old phrase that says you're not punished for your sins, you're punished by your sins.
Rev:Karma sucks.
Rev:I love everybody, and I'm going to be just fine.
Rev:Those who love receive more love.
Rev:Those who don't receive the consequences of not giving love away.
Rev:So it's a total karmic plus three for me.
Coach Stu:Well, I like that.
Coach Stu:I've seen that happen.
Mac:Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Mac:You said plus three.
Coach Stu:I did, yeah.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:Now, this is completely out of character.
Coach Stu:Yeah, I went all the way to the.
Coach Stu:To the edge.
Coach Stu:I said I would never do that, but I did anyway.
Coach Stu:I went all the way to the edge.
Rev:All right, welcome to the inside.
Rev:How did that happen?
Coach Stu:I think I'm confused right now.
Mac:Now, that's all right.
Mac:But you're loved, man.
Mac:Don't worry about it, okay?
Coach Stu:I'm just feeling the love.
Mac:So there we go.
Mac:We've got two plus threes and a zero.
Mac:All right, that's our perspective on this one.
Mac:So we hope you enjoyed it.
Mac:You're more than welcome to engage with us and let us know what you might have thought about it.
Mac:That would be fun.
Mac:All right, so we're going to bounce.
Mac:We're going to press into this whole idea that love wins.
Mac:All right?
Mac:You may be shaking your head a little bit at that.
Mac:You may be going, what's he talking about?
Mac:I mean, how does that work?
Mac:But let's go.
Mac:We're going to start this episode with something that the ancient church adopted.
Mac:And Bible writings, those all developed over time.
Mac:There's a whole story behind all of that.
Mac:But very simply, what the church began to run through their grid.
Mac:What was their litmus?
Mac:What was the sieve that all of it ran through?
Mac:And one of them was the thing that was called a rule of love.
Mac:Okay?
Mac:The church had the church and I say a commonality within the church, the early Christian church, and here's what the rule of love says.
Mac:Whoever then thinks that he or she understands the Holy Scriptures or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and love of neighbor does not yet understand them as he ought.
Mac:And to me, that's a very beautiful saying that says, look, you can read the Bible all you want.
Mac:You can read the Scriptures all you want.
Mac:You can highlight them and underline them and put different colors and all this other kind of stuff, and then come up with a theology that you're going to base around all that.
Mac:But if whatever you think about, whatever it is you just read does not line up with love God, love your neighbor, okay, then you better rethink it.
Rev:Well, I'm going to be so bold to say it's a completely false doctrine.
Rev:It's built upon a lie.
Rev:At least from my vantage point, my belief system, you cannot love God and not love your neighbor.
Rev:Otherwise, it's a house built on sand and it's based on a lie.
Mac:Wow, that's pretty strong there, Rev.
Coach Stu:Come on.
Coach Stu:Can I jump in your boat for a second?
Rev:Come on.
Coach Stu:In.
Coach Stu:I'm going to jump into the Rev's boat here, and I'm.
Coach Stu:And I'm going to say this.
Coach Stu:I'm going to say how you love people is how you love God.
Coach Stu:I'm.
Rev:Welcome to the boat, brother.
Coach Stu:We're in this fun in here.
Rev:You know, the reality is, my belief system, just my doctrine that I espouse is that God is the only power at work on the planet, and God is love itself.
Rev:And therefore, if it's the only power, God is expressed as all people.
Rev:All people, no exclusion.
Rev:And so my job is to just be the presence of God sharing love.
Rev:It's God exchanging God with God.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:Now, that's going to rock some people's worlds.
Rev:But the reality is it's good.
Mac:That's okay.
Coach Stu:Well, Jesus showed us how to do this.
Coach Stu:I mean, he met people where they are.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:Physically, emotionally, spiritually.
Coach Stu:He met him right where they are, no matter who.
Coach Stu:And.
Coach Stu:And I.
Coach Stu:I feel fortunate that I feel like I can.
Coach Stu:I can do this.
Coach Stu:Like I can jump into any group of people.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:And feel okay being there and have good conversations with them.
Coach Stu:As if, like, I'm.
Coach Stu:I'm part of the crew.
Rev:Well, that's living the Christ life that the example was put out there.
Rev:He crossed borders, he crossed boundaries.
Rev:He went and talked to the people that you weren't supposed to talk to.
Mac:Right.
Rev:Because that's what love does.
Mac:Exactly.
Mac:Well, you know, that's what we love about.
Coach Stu:Who says you weren't supposed to talk to him?
Coach Stu:Come on.
Coach Stu:This boat is going to island of Love.
Rev:The love boat.
Mac:Oh, I don't think I have that theme song in a clip.
Mac:I should have, you know, but we've talked about this, too.
Mac:I think we've even done a meme on this that said, b, you know, what's our.
Mac:What's.
Mac:What's life?
Mac:What's our life's purpose?
Mac:You know, that whole kind of thing that's out there.
Mac:You know, and very simply, upon occasion, I've said to be a distribution center for God's love.
Coach Stu:Right, Right.
Mac:And we tend to want to be.
Mac:A lot of times we want to be collection centers as opposed to distribution centers.
Rev:You know, what if we were to just take God out of the equation there for a minute, to just be a distribution center of love, which is, in essence, expressing God?
Mac:I would say that would work, too.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:So there we are.
Mac:So that we have this idea of God as love.
Mac:And if that's the case, you know, God is love.
Mac:Right.
Mac:We're going to go to a place to start this off.
Mac: In: Mac:And we were going to take some of the nuggets from that as just sort of a jumping off point.
Mac:But that book just absolutely rocked the evangelical world.
Mac:All right, I did, for good reason, as a matter of fact, but it had a profound effect on me because a lot of the stuff that Rob talks about in that book, first of all, I had already been mulling over and thinking and all that.
Mac:I'm not trying to say I'm as smart as Rob Bell, but Rob Bell.
Rev:Had the guts to say a lot of things that a lot of people were feeling in the religious world that.
Mac:This is true that you mean?
Mac:I resonated with him because I said, oh my gosh, there's this guy like Rob, and he's thinking the same thing I'm thinking, you know, oh, thank you.
Mac:It's one of those things for taking the tomatoes here, man, because you're definitely taking them.
Mac:Okay, so, you know, with that, I've set you up a little bit.
Mac:But what I want to do is he, he has a little promo out there.
Mac:We're going to put a link in the show notes to this little three minute video.
Mac:We're not going to play the whole thing here, but I want to take a little snippet of it because I think it's a great jumping off point for where this conversation is going to go.
Mac:So hang on a little sec for a second here.
Mac:We're going to, we're going to play around.
Guest Speaker:Gandhi's in hell.
Mac:He is.
Guest Speaker:And someone knows this for sure and felt the need to let the rest of us know.
Guest Speaker:Will only a few select people make it to heaven?
Guest Speaker:And will billions and billions of people burn forever in hell?
Guest Speaker:And then there is the question behind the questions.
Guest Speaker:The real question.
Guest Speaker:What is God like?
Guest Speaker:Because millions and millions of people were taught that the primary message, the center of the gospel of Jesus is that God is going to send you to hell unless you believe in Jesus.
Guest Speaker:And so what gets subtly sort of caught and taught is that Jesus rescues you from God.
Guest Speaker:But what kind of God is that, that we would need to be rescued from this God?
Guest Speaker:How could that God ever be good?
Guest Speaker:How could that God ever be trusted?
Guest Speaker:And how could that ever be good news?
Coach Stu:Wow.
Coach Stu:That powerful?
Mac:Isn't that?
Coach Stu:I mean, I've heard that so many times, but every time I hear it, it just amazes me that I used to think that way.
Rev:You know what I love?
Rev:He's just asking questions.
Mac:That's all he's doing.
Rev:And he took the tomatoes because he just asked questions about how weak is my theology, that somebody asking me a question causes me to have to be that defensive.
Rev:They're beautiful questions.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:I mean, there's the book.
Mac:I mean, I can't say enough.
Mac:Good enough about the book.
Mac:So any of you that might want to get it and read it, we would love to hear how you react to it.
Mac:All right, that's.
Mac:That goes maybe without saying, but I'm saying it anyway.
Mac:All right.
Mac:But a couple of some nuggets that came out of that book.
Mac:I want to hit these, you know, fairly quickly because, again, they just sort of set us up.
Mac:Rob just got so much wisdom, I think, in that book, in perspective.
Mac:And so one of the notes that I took from it, one of the nuggets I took from it was he.
Mac:He said in there that we shape our God and then our God shapes us.
Mac:So in other words, we gotta be really careful because we take a look and we make a God up, you know, that we can live with.
Mac:That makes it sound like, you know, it makes sense to us.
Mac:And then we let that God shape us, you know, and think about the consequences of that.
Mac:Because what you believe about God matters.
Mac:I mean, it frames everything.
Mac:Right?
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Yeah, that.
Coach Stu:That seems.
Coach Stu:The word that comes to mind for me is that seems like limiting.
Coach Stu:Like, if I'm shaping God, you know, my.
Coach Stu:My brain can only.
Mac:Well, that's right.
Coach Stu:Do so much.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:I mean, I feel like I'm limiting God by.
Coach Stu:By trying to shape him.
Rev:I'm really curious.
Rev:The fact is that it's.
Rev:Isn't it amazing that God that doesn't like the same people I don't like, or that God, you know, has the same exact thought that I have?
Rev:What?
Rev:Isn't that amazing?
Rev:We have made God a personality based on our own personalities.
Rev:And it has narrowed the field of what love is to a very small box.
Coach Stu:So I get why that happened, Rev, you know, and why people do that, because it's how we think.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:We're trying to relate in some way.
Coach Stu:So I get it.
Coach Stu:And I just challenge everybody to try to think differently about it.
Coach Stu:Oh, right.
Mac:Think differently.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Rev:Open a corner of your mind.
Coach Stu:I mean, try something new, try a different thought and see what happens.
Mac:This book and this discussion helps you to get there, will definitely prompt a lot of that.
Rev:But how scared is the religious world these days to, okay, just try something new.
Rev:You're going to go to hell if you do if you ask a question, you're going to go to hell.
Rev:No, you're going to try something different or just listen to somebody who's different belief system.
Rev:No, you're going to go to hell.
Rev:We are so afraid at the core of stepping outside the line a little bit that, no, I'm not going to do it because I'm a God.
Coach Stu:You just took me straight back to Sunday school.
Coach Stu:Yeah, that's why in the Catholic Church when I was in elementary school, because right after I would have said something like this, I'd have been put in the corner and my parents would have been called.
Coach Stu:Do you know what little this little Johnny said?
Coach Stu:Like, oops.
Mac:See, this is.
Coach Stu:I just have questions, right?
Mac:I mean, love's not winning here.
Coach Stu:So this is a good point to make.
Coach Stu:I mean, yeah, love's not winning in that it's okay for you to have questions like, you should never feel guilty if you say them out loud or even just think them and think, oh, I shouldn't even be thinking this.
Coach Stu:I shouldn't be having this question.
Coach Stu:Not true.
Coach Stu:God can handle your questions.
Rev:Well, God welcomes the questions.
Mac:Well, this comes of.
Mac:Gets to one of our talking points here too, that says in his book.
Mac:This is still some of the nuggets from the book.
Mac:God is as much the question as the answer, right?
Mac:Now think about that for a second.
Mac:That's pretty profound.
Mac:That's like a Cohen or something like that, right?
Mac:God is as much the question as the answer.
Mac:So again, what did Jesus do when people asked him a question right back?
Coach Stu:Yeah, he asked the question back right.
Mac:You know, so, you know, we got to understand again, when we're forming this perception of the Almighty, first of all, as Stu said, it's finite because we're finite.
Mac:We can't figure that all out by any means.
Mac:But, you know, God asks more questions than gives answers.
Mac:I think is really the cool thing about that, you know, in general, because why.
Mac:Why does a teacher ask questions?
Coach Stu:To get your brain to work, to think, to get you thinking.
Rev:Socratic method that works for learning and growth and evolution.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:It is an expansive mindset.
Rev:It's an expansive energy.
Rev:Not contractive.
Rev:If I'm living only in the answers that I had for the last 10 years, I'm contracting and questions open up the field of my mind.
Rev:And my.
Rev:It's really scary because I know what I believed 10 years ago.
Mac:I'm thinking the same thing.
Mac:This ain't about you.
Mac:We're thinking for me.
Mac:Oh, man.
Mac:But how many of you out There are nodding, going, yeah, I've done that.
Mac:Yep, that's me.
Mac:Yep.
Rev:Okay, well, be okay with getting put into the corner with Johnny.
Rev:It's good company there.
Mac:Oh, boy.
Mac:I don't know.
Mac:Unless Billy's poking you in the leg with.
Coach Stu:Yeah, right.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:All right, so here we go.
Mac:How about this one?
Mac:And I thought, you know, you know, Tony Campalo, I don't know if anybody out there listening to us knows him, but he just passed away recently, and he wrote a book years and years ago that talked about adventures and Missing the Point, which was a really cool title.
Mac:So I definitely had to buy that and read it.
Mac:But what they were saying in that book, and the same thing Rob's saying in this book, eternal life.
Mac:Let's.
Mac:Because this is where we're going with this.
Mac:Love wins.
Mac:And the whole eternal life thing.
Mac:And, you know, we're getting there.
Mac:It starts now.
Mac:Eternity.
Mac:Everybody's eternity starts now.
Mac:And then it starts again now.
Mac:And then now.
Mac:So, you know, instead of going somewhere else, to the heaven or even to the hell again, we're going to go.
Mac:But again, it's away from here when we have that perspective, as opposed to saying, right here, right now, it's the.
Rev:Only place that God exists.
Rev:It's the only place love exists is now.
Rev:Not yesterday or tomorrow.
Rev:It's not five minutes either direction.
Rev:It is only now.
Rev:So when we are living in the future or in the past, we are separating ourselves from love, from God.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Exactly.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Hello.
Mac:Is this resonating with anybody?
Mac:Or if you already.
Mac:If I asked you if you've already turned us off, you're not listening, so that probably doesn't make sense, but are you thinking about it?
Mac:All right.
Mac:You know, hang with us a little bit, maybe.
Mac:This is some stuff right here, some different thinking.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Why wait?
Coach Stu:And when I.
Coach Stu:When you read this, I was thinking, why?
Coach Stu:Why wait?
Coach Stu:Why does anybody want to wait?
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:Like, just start.
Coach Stu:Start now.
Coach Stu:Like, why?
Mac:It's all about, as a rep.
Mac:Said Jesus.
Mac:What did Jesus, hello.
Mac:Go love your neighbor.
Mac:Like, not in eternity.
Rev:You know what I also loved is he also said, and when it comes to love, he said, oh, yeah, you love your friends.
Rev:You love the people that love you.
Rev:Whoop dee doo on you.
Rev:You gotta love your enemies.
Rev:That means love everybody.
Rev:No exceptions.
Mac:Yep.
Mac:That's it.
Mac:And that's a.
Mac:I mean, it's moved mountains.
Mac:It's made so many different things happen with the world and with people.
Rev:I'm going to give you a quote I brought because I wanted to say this so bad.
Mac:Here we go.
Rev:A little bit of new thought in here as we're talking about Jesus.
Rev:He wrote this.
Rev:There is no difficulty that enough love will not conquer, no disease that enough love will not heal.
Rev:No door that enough love will not open, no gulf that enough love will not bridge, no wall that enough love will not throw down, no sin that enough love will not redeem.
Rev:It makes no difference how deeply seated may be the trouble or how hopeless the outlook, how muddled the tangle, or how great the mistake.
Rev:A sufficient realization of love will dissolve it all.
Rev:Love wins.
Mac:So we just dropped the mic now then, right, Fox?
Rev:Not me.
Coach Stu:That's.
Rev:But it's the truth.
Rev:But, boy, is it hard to do.
Mac:Well, there's the.
Mac:There becomes the follow up to that.
Mac:So, therefore.
Mac:Therefore.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:So in this, we're going to talk about some of those kind of therefore.
Mac:So last little point, maybe from the book, before we jump into kind of fleshing some of this out from our own perspectives.
Mac:God's.
Mac:It's the difference between transformation and condemnation.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So God's restoration brings God glory.
Mac:Restoring, restoring, coming back.
Mac:Aha.
Mac:I love you no matter what.
Mac:Oh, you're right.
Mac:I think you do.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:But not eternal punishment.
Mac:That doesn't bring God any glory.
Mac:You know, where do we get the idea that that is part of the plan?
Mac:Right.
Mac:So I know the answer.
Rev:God loves being so much that he's designed a personal torture chamber for me to torture me in the hell just in case I don't walk lockstep in the.
Mac:Exactly.
Mac:So with that, you know, those were some nuggets from Rob's book.
Mac:We just didn't just.
Mac:I mean, I'm not even going to say we scratched the surface.
Mac:So again, I encourage you to read that if this is all resonating with you, because he will blow your mind.
Coach Stu:Right, Right.
Coach Stu:So let's talk about kinds of love.
Coach Stu:Different kinds of love.
Coach Stu:And you know, Mac, what I love about you leading this podcast is that you always give us, like, an agenda, give us, like, things to ponder, and it's very, very organized.
Coach Stu:Bullet points.
Coach Stu:So I'm going off script.
Mac:Okay, that's all right.
Coach Stu:We can talk about your bullet points.
Coach Stu:But I'm going to.
Coach Stu:I was listening to some of the Pneuma videos that Rob Bell put out, and he talks about so different kinds of love.
Coach Stu:He talks about three Hebrew words for love that are in the Bible.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:And they mean different things.
Coach Stu:So I'm probably not going to say these words correctly.
Coach Stu:I'm going to do the best I can.
Coach Stu:With them.
Coach Stu:But the first one is called raya.
Coach Stu:Raya.
Coach Stu:Okay.
Coach Stu:And so that kind of love.
Coach Stu:And this is in the Bible, right?
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:That kind of love is friendship or companion love.
Coach Stu:It's a bond of closeness, familiar.
Coach Stu:I can't say this word.
Coach Stu:Familiarity.
Coach Stu:Somebody say it for me.
Rev:Familiarity.
Coach Stu:There you go.
Coach Stu:And shared life experiences.
Mac:Yes.
Coach Stu:So that's one.
Coach Stu:So another is ahava.
Coach Stu:I think it's how you say it, Ahava.
Coach Stu:So it's deep commitment and affection.
Coach Stu:This is the love that perseveres, goes beyond feelings, is based on intentional ch.
Coach Stu:Choice and dedication.
Mac:Okay.
Coach Stu:And the last one is DOD Spelled D O, D, dod.
Coach Stu:I think that's how you say it.
Coach Stu:And this is the romantic, passionate or physical love.
Coach Stu:The sensual or intimate aspect of love often associated with desire.
Coach Stu:So those.
Coach Stu:Those three kinds of love are all mentioned in the Bible, Right.
Coach Stu:That we can express.
Coach Stu:Express and experience in life.
Rev:Good study, coach.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:It's interesting that you're right that they.
Mac:And even I think it's in first John.
Mac:Or they talk about, you know, those different.
Mac:Different kinds.
Mac:And they're called different things.
Mac:So it's beautiful.
Mac:I think we're exotic cocktails.
Rev:Right.
Mac:I mean, there's a perfect example.
Rev:I try to live my life by agape love.
Rev:It's unconditional.
Rev:It is love for the sake of loving.
Rev:That's it.
Rev:Period.
Rev:No exceptions.
Mac:Yeah.
Rev:So, you know, we've got very much like the ahava and you're talking about.
Mac:I mean, we've got all kinds of different degrees of.
Mac:Whether it's a parent, child, friends, spouses.
Mac:You know, how about.
Mac:How about this?
Mac:We've been talking about this already.
Mac:How about just humanity, just people, period?
Mac:You know, I don't have to necessarily have any kind of relationship with an individual.
Mac:Although, if you believe this, and I think we do, but, you know, we're all one.
Mac:All right?
Mac:I mean, you know, everything's interconnected.
Mac:Right.
Mac:It's all one.
Mac:Then, you know, love, God, love yourself.
Mac:It's all kind of the same thing.
Rev:If I have to know what you think and what you believe to love you, then my love is.
Rev:Again, back to the condition false.
Rev:It's conditional and it's a lie.
Mac:Right, Right.
Coach Stu:So if you think about the different people in your life here, you know, if you're a parent or you have a parent, you have a child.
Mac:Sure.
Coach Stu:Friends, spouses, just, you know, anybody else that's in your.
Coach Stu:In your world.
Coach Stu:Do you believe that there are different degrees of love amongst those different groups of people?
Coach Stu:What do you think well, that's.
Mac:I mean, you know, I think if you want to throw the blanket over it, love is love, right?
Mac:You kind of just.
Mac:You don't even categorize it.
Mac:You don't even try to separate it out.
Mac:But I think the practical side of it is, you know, there's a general love that you can have for everyone, and then there's the.
Mac:More, as you described it, deeper and, you know, emotional to certain ties to certain people.
Mac:And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Mac:You know, I mean, that's just Right.
Mac:The way we're wired.
Rev:Is that the ultimate of love?
Rev:Is it possible to be vibrating as a center of love and absolutely feel love for all creation at that moment?
Rev:Is that dimension?
Rev:Is that a dimension that means we finally just leave the earth, We've escaped this reality to go to the higher reality?
Rev:That's my quest.
Rev:That's my hope that I could get there.
Rev:I've tasted it, I touched it just for a moment.
Rev:And then that person who drives me nuts comes into my head, and it's like, I got more work to do.
Mac:Well, we all got more work to do, no matter what, right?
Mac:So these are beautiful things.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Coach Stu:So when I saw this question, that's what led me to these three Hebrew words, right?
Coach Stu:And when I was thinking about degrees of love, to me, they're all just a high degree.
Coach Stu:Like, there isn't.
Coach Stu:Like there really isn't degrees of love.
Coach Stu:To me.
Coach Stu:There are different types, which is what I was.
Coach Stu:What I mentioned with those three Hebrew words.
Coach Stu:And maybe that's how people think about it, right?
Mac:I think so.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:I would say so.
Mac:I think that's.
Rev:I like to look at love as a multifaceted diamond.
Rev:It's got many, many sides, and it's been reflecting all over the place.
Rev:But it's not the diamond itself that love is the diamond.
Rev:But there's different ways that love expresses.
Rev:Can we love.
Rev:It says here in the notes.
Rev:We're going back to the notes here, Mac.
Rev:Can we love the abuser?
Rev:You know, I had a lot of kids, and I don't want to go into a long story, but I had one child who was taught by a previous foster parent hate her father, who had abused her sexually.
Rev:She didn't get it.
Rev:She loved her father and was taught to hate him.
Rev:The kid was consumed with night terrors.
Rev:She was consumed with anxiety.
Rev:She could not function as a child growing up.
Rev:And we gave her permission that it was okay to love her father, to not like what he had done.
Rev:He was going to pay the price and go to jail, which he did.
Rev:But it was okay to love him.
Rev:She was cured of all of her anxieties, all of her night terrors, all of the nightmares, and she began to be a talented public figure, speaking and drawing people around her.
Rev:And love was the answer to it.
Rev:Loving the abuser and not hating him.
Mac:Love wins.
Rev:It heals.
Coach Stu:Love heals.
Mac:Love heals.
Mac:Wow.
Coach Stu:And what's so fantastic about that story, Rev, is she, he or she was helping themselves, but it spread throughout the world.
Coach Stu:I'm going to say it certainly spread.
Rev:Throughout the rest of her family.
Coach Stu:Certainly did.
Coach Stu:If you think about that.
Coach Stu:I'm sure it spread from there further and further and further out.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Rev:Love is like a pebble thrown into the ocean, and the ripples go, go, go.
Mac:She.
Rev:You know, Dan put a bow on that story.
Rev:Her father died, and she was at his bedside when he died, and he asked for forgiveness.
Rev:That never would have happened had love not been present in her heart.
Rev:And that's hard.
Rev:I want to be real clear.
Rev:I'm not saying that that's an easy job.
Coach Stu:This is not easy.
Mac:No way.
Rev:No, no.
Mac:We're not making light of this at all.
Rev:And I want to be real clear about that, because it's probably the most painful trip.
Rev:But I guarantee you that you can heal your own heart if you can find that capacity to love.
Mac:Right.
Rev:Doesn't mean you have to ever be at anybody's bedside when they die or go see them in jail.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Well, this is awesome stuff, guys.
Mac:I mean, we've got.
Mac:We got a couple more major topics that we'll talk about.
Mac:We'll talk about a little bit of heaven and hell, which always a great discussion.
Mac:And that certainly was part of Rob's book.
Mac:And then, you know, there's no doubt that all of this is a mystery.
Mac:There's much mystery involved with it.
Mac:So we're gonna.
Mac:We're gonna kind of flesh a couple of those concepts out after we take a break here, and we'll come back and see what the wise guys have got to say.
Mac:Hang on.
Mac:We'll be right back.
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Mac:All right, welcome back to the Wise Guys podcast, where this episode we're talking Love Wins.
Mac:So the first part of the episode we fleshed a little bit out on Rob Bell's book, Love Wins Some nuggets from him, which kind of really has affected us in his wisdom and his perspective.
Mac:This was several years ago, and so now I think we'll kind of transition a little bit it, and we'll still hit some of the points that were in his book.
Mac:One of the main ones we're going to start with here has to do with heaven and hell, and that's part of his tagline.
Mac:And so when you start to talk about love winning in a blanket sense, the whole nine yards, everybody, all you use these conclusive words, then you're going to bump up against some theology out there that would create these places that we have commonly call heaven and hell.
Mac:And what are the ramifications of.
Mac:What is the ramification of that belief or that perspective?
Rev:So what do you think is the orthodox?
Rev:What have you guys all been taught when you were little?
Rev:Johnny sitting in the corner asking questions?
Rev:What were you taught about heaven and hell?
Coach Stu:Yeah, to me, they were actual physical locations I was going to.
Coach Stu:Is how I was taught growing up.
Mac:Yeah.
Coach Stu:You know, when I die, I hope I've done everything I need to do to get to heaven, which is another place.
Coach Stu:And you don't want to go to hell.
Coach Stu:That's another.
Rev:I was taught the same thing.
Rev:And I tell you, I spent a good part of my younger years just scared to death that the devil was going to come visit me and take me away to hell because I wasn't behaving.
Rev:Right.
Mac:Right.
Rev:It was a pretty scary upbringing.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:You know, we.
Mac:Gosh, there's so much to this discussion.
Mac:There's so many different trails and nuances and perspectives.
Mac:And again, we want to try to default the best that we can.
Mac:And Rob does this in.
Mac:He says, well, if love wins.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:If.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Then the idea that there is going to be eternal torment, if you will, for people that don't, you know, sign up in the right way.
Mac:You know, I always called it over the years, the innies and the outies.
Mac:If you're not an innie.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:Whoa.
Mac:Eternity is a long time.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:And so, you know, it affects a lot when you adopt this view of God.
Mac:Like Rob says in that little clip, what kind of God do we need to be?
Rev:It doesn't sound so loving to me.
Mac:Yeah, well, this is his point.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:This doesn't sound like The God I believe in.
Coach Stu:Well, like I have a hard time even imagining I thought that way when I was younger.
Mac:Sure.
Mac:Well, we didn't.
Rev:I mean, you were told that's the way you're supposed to think.
Rev:That's right.
Rev:And you're just soaking it up as a child.
Coach Stu:Well, and this, and this is.
Coach Stu:So this is a good point to make is a lot of people.
Coach Stu:And you may be out there, Rogers, listening.
Coach Stu:You may have never re explored God or your faith as an adult.
Coach Stu:So what you know is what you know from when you were a child and what you were told.
Coach Stu:Right.
Coach Stu:And if you don't ever re explore it, it may never.
Coach Stu:It may stay the same.
Coach Stu:But maybe not like mind change.
Mac:Now you own it.
Mac:Now you own it.
Rev:Mind change.
Rev:Heaven and hell just became states of consciousness.
Rev:You know, by my definition, if go is love, then when I am involved in the expression and the experience of love, I'm in heaven.
Rev:And when I am not expressing love, I'm in a place of hell.
Rev:Who gets to decide?
Rev:I get to decide when I'm expressing love.
Rev:It's heavenly.
Mac:Right, right.
Rev:Even with my enemies.
Mac:Yeah, well, and you don't have capricious God at that point.
Mac:You know, that's pointing fingers.
Mac:That's choosing.
Mac:That's this, that's that.
Mac:I mean, you know, you have to, you have to kind of go back to understand when the Bible was written.
Mac:Because where do we get these ideas?
Mac:First of all, right, we take the Bible, Old and New Testament and the words that are in there and how they've developed and how they've changed and how they.
Mac:Again, that's a rabbit trail we're not going to run here.
Coach Stu:It's a whole nother episode.
Rev:You read my mind and stop cut me off at the past.
Mac:But the whole.
Mac:The point is this, that you take an ancient culture trying to understand an infinite God and you just have to factor all that in.
Mac:All right?
Mac:It just was what it was and people did the best they could do with what they had.
Mac:But the idea that you couple.
Mac:God needs to be just.
Mac:God needs sacrifice.
Mac:God needs blood in order for, you know, things to be right.
Mac:Those are very ancient, almost, you know, tribal.
Rev:They're not so ancient.
Rev:It's been perpetuated in the whole Christian mythology that says there was a sacrifice of Jesus that to pay all the sins of humanity.
Rev:That's a mythology that.
Rev:And what you're talking about is antiquity is being perpetrated today.
Mac:Well, I agree with that.
Rev:And it's being espoused and sent to the next kid and the next kid and the next kid.
Rev:So it's still right?
Rev:It still lives.
Mac:Well, when you think, when you're.
Mac:I love what he also said in that.
Mac:He maybe didn't say it in the clip that I played, but there are lots of things when it comes to not just theology, but we'll talk about that right now.
Mac:And when you look at God that are subtly caught and taught, I mean, you don't necessarily need to stand up in a classroom or you don't need to stand up from a pulpit and say A, B, C and D.
Mac:But you infer things, you catch it.
Mac:For instance, if you really believe that God needed to put Jesus his son, up on a cross and face a bloody death, then what's subtly caught and taught there is violence is part of the way God operates in order to get what God wants.
Coach Stu:Right.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:And so therefore it's not so abhorrent to think that we can go over here and take these indigenous people's stuff and land and everything and ship them off and kill them, because that's a God we serve.
Mac:I mean, you know, you know the.
Rev:Word sacrifice, what it means, the etymology of the word sacrifice is to just make sacred.
Rev:And it's not this barbaric thing of sacrificing a life.
Rev:It's about making sacred.
Rev:And how do you make something sacred?
Rev:Bring more love to it.
Rev:Yeah, that's it.
Rev:Period.
Rev:Stop there and get the violence.
Rev:Doesn't have to even factor in.
Mac:Well, yes, because why?
Mac:Because you run it through the love, winds, grace.
Mac:You run it through the rule of love that we talked about earlier.
Mac:You know, if you don't have that glitmus, if you don't have that discernment, if you don't have that wisdom, then you're going to get jerked around in all kinds of different directions and you're not even going to realize certain things that just become part of who you are that cause you to act the way you act.
Coach Stu:Okay, I just had, I just had like an epiphany of thought.
Rev:Something's happening.
Coach Stu:Something's happening right here.
Coach Stu:There's little.
Mac:I see an aura.
Coach Stu:Fireworks are going on right around.
Coach Stu:I have something for us all to do.
Coach Stu:Everybody out there.
Coach Stu:Everybody out there, right?
Coach Stu:In any situation that you're in, ask yourself this question.
Mac:Here it comes.
Coach Stu:How can love win?
Rev:Oh.
Coach Stu:And then see what happens.
Coach Stu:Think about how that might change how you view the situation and what you're going to do about it.
Rev:It again, we're back to the questions and I would Ask a question before I ask that one, because that's a good one, is, do I believe that love wins?
Rev:Do I believe that love is more powerful than darkness?
Rev:Do I believe that love is more powerful than bad behavior?
Rev:Do I believe that love is more powerful than anything on the planet?
Rev:I've got to ask that question.
Coach Stu:So for me, that's a yes.
Coach Stu:I was already there.
Coach Stu:I was already.
Coach Stu:That's a three.
Coach Stu:I was already there.
Coach Stu:Yeah, I was already at that place.
Coach Stu:But, yes, I hear that.
Rev:Everybody's there.
Coach Stu:If you hadn't thought about that, answer that question and then.
Mac:Yeah, then do this.
Mac:And this is a really good point, all right?
Mac:That in order to.
Mac:We're going to talk about this in an upcoming episode called Root and Fruit, all right?
Mac:That if you don't deal with the root of this discussion, is God love.
Mac:All right, does love win?
Mac:All right?
Mac:I mean, that's the root of the scenario.
Mac:All right?
Mac:So if you adopt that root truth, then what Stu's talking about, there's the way it manifests, you know, Right.
Rev:Jesus said it over and over.
Rev:You gotta check the root.
Rev:The root is not solid.
Rev:Then your branches are not gonna be solid.
Rev:The fruit will be rotten.
Rev:So you've got to really understand, love is.
Rev:No matter what, no matter what happens, no matter how difficult or how much it feels like I'm losing, love will win.
Rev:It's not me.
Rev:Take my personality out of the equation and take God's personality out of the equation.
Rev:God doesn't have a personality.
Mac:Well, there's.
Mac:Yeah, well, okay, that might have got some people right there.
Mac:Oh, did you guys hear that?
Mac:Okay.
Mac:Hello.
Rev:God does not have a personality.
Rev:God is like fire.
Rev:I like to liken God to fire.
Rev:Is it good?
Rev:Is it bad?
Rev:It just is.
Rev:Electricity.
Rev:Is it good?
Rev:Is it bad?
Rev:It just is.
Rev:You either use it or you don't.
Rev:It's either in your favor because you're.
Rev:You're asleep or you're awake.
Rev:That's what love is to me.
Mac:Whoa.
Rev:That's what God is to me.
Mac:Whoa.
Mac:What do you think, Steve?
Coach Stu:My brain is.
Mac:I know.
Mac:It's just exploding fire, right?
Coach Stu:Yeah, it's on fire right now.
Mac:Well, the last thing.
Mac:We're going to kind of wrap this thing up a little bit.
Mac:But let's not.
Mac:Let's not lose sight of the fact that in this.
Mac:Amongst it, through it, just every part of it, for the most part, is a mystery.
Mac:I mean, there's mystery just oozing out of this whole thing.
Mac:Because we can talk all we want and we're doing the best we can and we're articulating certain truths and we're learning from each other and we're gaining wisdom.
Mac:But at the end of the day, too, don't think that we can just wrap our arms around this whole concept and think we've got it.
Mac:Because the minute you take the mystery out of it, the unknown, that I believe this, but help me in my unbelief.
Mac:As you hear reading the Bible, you have to be really careful because we will start to tell a story.
Mac:We have our own story that we tell about God, about us, about ourselves.
Mac:And, you know, a lot of times God's telling a different story and we're not listening and we're not paying attention and we're not tuned in.
Rev:And what is the tool to get into that mystery, to feel that expansiveness?
Rev:That's where we started.
Rev:Ask questions, don't live in your answers.
Rev:Expand and don't contract.
Mac:Right, right, right, right.
Mac:And there's lots of ways you can do about that.
Mac:We've talked about many of those.
Mac:Whether it's meditating, whether it's ask the questions of your friends.
Mac:Just ask the question, period.
Mac:And let the spirit help you discern.
Mac:I mean, whatever it might be, but we got to think differently about it.
Mac:Right?
Mac:That's one of our main mantras.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So, you know, when was the last.
Rev:Time any of us said, what do you think?
Rev:What do you feel?
Rev:Who's God to you?
Rev:What is God to you?
Rev:Those are really good questions.
Rev:If we're not shut down, I don't really want to know your answer.
Rev:I just want to confirm.
Rev:Convert you.
Rev:No, I really want to know how you're experiencing God, love and all of that thing.
Rev:Yeah, those are, that's all about questions.
Mac:I think it's great.
Rev:So many people are, you know, all about answering your questions.
Rev:And I'm saying if we don't question our answers, we have stopped the flow of God and love in our life.
Coach Stu:So add this phrase to your list of phrases.
Coach Stu:Okay, you ready?
Coach Stu:Tell me more about that.
Mac:Yep, yep.
Coach Stu:And see what happens.
Mac:Exactly.
Mac:Yep.
Mac:It's not condemning, it's not putting somebody on the spot.
Mac:Of course, depends on how you say it too.
Mac:Right.
Mac:But again, if you're doing it in the right frame of mind, like you.
Coach Stu:Just tell me more.
Coach Stu:Like, I'm curious.
Coach Stu:Tell me more about that.
Rev:Well, and that's going to cause you to.
Rev:You had to confront the people that told you that question is going to hell.
Rev:Tell me more about God.
Rev:Oh, you're Going to hell.
Rev:You got to confront that system that lives in a lot of people.
Rev:Not you anymore, because you're brighter than the average bear.
Rev:But the reality is, Johnny, you can't put Johnny in the corner anymore.
Mac:Well, let's come out of the corner.
Mac:All of you guys.
Mac:All of you.
Mac:Rogers, man, you need to come out of the corner.
Coach Stu:No, you know what happened is people came with me.
Coach Stu:Now I have more people over there in the corner.
Rev:He built a church in the corner.
Coach Stu:Yeah, well, like the whole class is in the corner now.
Mac:Yeah, but.
Mac:But you know what?
Mac:They're.
Mac:They're coming up with some new answers that this world desperately needs.
Mac:Which is.
Mac:Is exciting what they're doing in the corners.
Rev:They're pushing the walls.
Coach Stu:That's right.
Mac:Pushing them down.
Mac:Yep.
Coach Stu:So into the inside edge.
Mac:You know, let us.
Mac:Let us encourage you in this practice the rule of love.
Mac:You know, just say, look, what.
Mac:However I'm gridding what I'm reading in the Bible, what I'm reading anywhere.
Mac:It doesn't matter whether I'm living my life.
Mac:Making a decision like Stu is just talking about, am I going to run it through the rule of love.
Coach Stu:Yeah.
Mac:And believe me, it doesn't have to get a lot more complicated than that.
Mac:It's hard enough.
Mac:Right.
Coach Stu:What does love require of me right now in this situation?
Mac:So there we are.
Mac:All right, gang.
Mac:So cool.
Mac:But you know what's going to come with that, right?
Mac:Of course.
Mac:That we have to accept some responsibility.
Coach Stu:No doubt.
Coach Stu:Rogers, your ongoing mission, should you choose to accept it, is this.
Coach Stu:Decide to go rogue.
Coach Stu:Find like minded roguers.
Coach Stu:They're out there and they're right next to you.
Mac:Yes, they are.
Coach Stu:Strap on the armor.
Coach Stu:Storm those gates and unleash the unthinkable.
Mac:This is what we're all about, gang.
Mac:I love it.
Mac:I love it.
Mac:Sound effects by the Rev Take up the call.
Mac:Answer the call.
Mac:Answer the call.
Mac:We got Rev pretty excited, so I'm hoping you guys are.
Rev:It wasn't sound effects, it was indigestion.
Mac:I was wondering.
Mac:So thanks for listening.
Mac:This week, gang, love wins.
Mac:And we totally believe that.
Mac:I hope you will begin to at least chew on it a little bit.
Mac:You know, read the book again and man, I'm handled.
Mac:Blow your mind.
Mac:I'm just telling you right now, if you have never been exposed to any of this.
Mac:So thank you, my wise guys.
Mac:How's it both?
Mac:Such wisdom.
Coach Stu:I'm so glad of this reminder.
Coach Stu:I'm actually going to reread the book.
Mac:Yeah, yeah, it's.
Mac:I mean, it's.
Mac:It changed my life.
Mac:That's all I could really say.
Mac:So thank you guys for your wisdom, for your love.
Mac:You know, it's all.
Mac:It's so good.
Mac:Again, thank you guys out there for listening to us.
Mac:Engage with us and let us know what you're thinking, let us know how you're loving.
Mac:We would love to hear that and tune in next week when we'll bring some more of our wise guiness to the equation and to the table.
Mac:So have a great week, take care, enjoy your holiday and we'll see you next week.
Host:Wow, you made it and can now unbuckle.
Host:Thanks for listening to Love Wins a conversation that suggests that we have been on an adventure in missing the point regarding eternity.
Host:Remember to visit the website at Gorogue Life for lots of follow up information.
Host:See the show notes for any links to episode content and check out the Seeing Differently blog.
Host:Oh, and of course tell everyone you know about us and like follow and engage.
Host:Be sure to tune in next week when Mac unleashes another unthinkable conversation.
Host:That is if you dare.
