Religion: The Roller Coaster of Faith and Fear
Religion can be a real roller coaster ride, can't it? In this chat, we're diving into the wild world of faith, exploring how it can be a source of community and purpose while also acknowledging that it can sometimes lead us down darker paths of dogma and fear. We're all about keeping it real, so we’ll take a look at the positives—like how religious practices can help foster connections and inspire a sense of belonging, as well as the not-so-great stuff that can pop up when beliefs become rigid and exclusionary. It’s all about finding that sweet middle ground, using love and discernment as our guiding lights. Let’s swap some thoughts and maybe even shake up how we see religion in our lives—because it’s all about keeping the conversation flowing and the hearts open!
Mac's Medium Site: L.J. McDonald – Medium
Takeaways:
- Religion can provide a strong sense of community and belonging, offering support in difficult times.
- It's essential to critically evaluate belief systems, balancing love and discernment to find truth.
- Dogma and fear-based practices can lead to harmful experiences, so questioning is key.
- Exploring diverse perspectives can enrich our understanding of spirituality and promote growth.
- Religious practices can inspire positive social change and moral guidance in our lives.
- Acknowledging the potential negatives of religion helps us cultivate a more compassionate worldview.
Transcript
Right.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker B:What I love is what you just.
Speaker A:Said comes from an open heart.
Speaker B:This Max stew comes from an open heart and an open mind, not a compartmentalized.
Speaker B:I can have a belief system and religiously live that belief system without it being organized by human mind to be in a box.
Speaker C:Yeah, I haven't started.
Speaker C:You want me to start?
Speaker A:Okay, go ahead and start.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Okay, here we go.
Speaker C:We're started.
Speaker A:Alrighty.
Speaker B:Oh, that was cool.
Speaker C:That went right off right there.
Speaker A:The clapper right there.
Speaker A:Yeah, Here we go.
Speaker A:All right, that's going.
Speaker C:We got recording happening.
Speaker A:Yes, I do.
Speaker A:The red light is on.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker A:Now, one last thing.
Speaker A:As you're looking at yourself right there, do we need to adjust any of this lighting or.
Speaker A:You look okay, everybody okay.
Speaker B:I look as good as I'm gonna look?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, I do.
Speaker C:Like, I didn't wear the right makeup tonight.
Speaker A:All right, here we go.
Speaker A:Here we go.
Speaker A:All.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Wise Guys.
Speaker A:It's a podcast where we challenge you to think differently.
Speaker A:That's going to be a biggie tonight, so don't.
Speaker A:We're going to repeat that a few times.
Speaker A:Think differently and shatter your norms.
Speaker A:Here we go, guys.
Speaker A:You like that this week.
Speaker A:We talked about that last week.
Speaker C:I've heard that before.
Speaker B:We needed that sound effect last week.
Speaker A:I know we needed it last week.
Speaker A:So we're shattering.
Speaker A:There it is.
Speaker A:Shattering your norms to help expand your worldview.
Speaker A:Be a little tough sometimes, but we're going to enjoy it.
Speaker A:We're going to have fun tonight.
Speaker A:Hi, I'm Mac and I'm your host.
Speaker A:And in this episode, we're going.
Speaker C:I'm waving to you.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, my guys are starting already on me here.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:In this episode, we're going to analyze the mainly Western concept of religion.
Speaker A:And that might sound a little bit funny, but we're going to talk to you and tell you why I said that.
Speaker A:You know, we're going to really try to have some fun and celebrate its positive effects, because there's lots of things about religion that are good.
Speaker A:I mean, who's not going to agree with that?
Speaker B:And at the same time, there's some.
Speaker A:People that might argue, okay, they have bad church experience.
Speaker A:Right, Here we go.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But, you know, it's not got all rainbows and unicorns either.
Speaker A:And there's some things, if we need to pull back the curtain a little bit, just some of the darker stuff maybe we might call it.
Speaker A:But, you know, at the end of the day, we'd like to Maybe do this episode where we walk through and mull over how we might have a more of a middle path, that if we apply some humility and some understanding, maybe some of those nuances about your religion or your faith or their faith or their religion might take a little bit of.
Speaker B:You are speaking my language already.
Speaker B:The middle way.
Speaker B:The middle path.
Speaker B:I'm all about that middle way.
Speaker A:I knew you'd love that, Rev.
Speaker B:Balance.
Speaker B:Harmony.
Speaker A:I got the rev.
Speaker A:Man, it's good to be here, Mac.
Speaker A:Good to see you.
Speaker B:And it's good to see the coach on the other side of the table.
Speaker A:Hey, Rev.
Speaker B:Mac.
Speaker C:Hey, how you doing, guys?
Speaker B:Good, brother.
Speaker A:Good, man.
Speaker C:It's good to see you.
Speaker C:Oh, so this is fun.
Speaker C:I like this today.
Speaker A:Yeah, this is.
Speaker C:Yeah, we're having a good time.
Speaker C:Hey, let me say hello to all of you beautiful, exotic cocktails out there.
Speaker C:We appreciate you being here.
Speaker B:And you know who you are.
Speaker C:You know who you are.
Speaker A:You are.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:You look in the mirror.
Speaker C:That.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's who we're talking about.
Speaker A:That's right, you exotics.
Speaker A:So, yeah, Winter, you know, maybe a little bit of the religion.
Speaker A:Roller coaster.
Speaker A:I really haven't figured.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker C:This will be fun.
Speaker A:You know, I haven't really landed the plane or the coaster, any of the best rides.
Speaker B:We don't know the destination, but we know it's going to be good.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:We're going to have a little few ups and downs.
Speaker A:We're going to get some.
Speaker A:Your belly's going to get.
Speaker C:You know, I hope we go upside down and backwards.
Speaker A:That would be.
Speaker C:That'd be fun.
Speaker B:Barrel rolls.
Speaker A:Well, you might.
Speaker A:I want to be in front of everybody.
Speaker A:Well, I know you probably don't want me in front of you in case I, you know, have an accident.
Speaker C:If we're going backwards, it's fine by me.
Speaker A:Oh, boy.
Speaker A:I'm gonna have to reel these guys in quickly here.
Speaker A:All right, guy, so we always start with words wise, right?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I got my words to the wise this week.
Speaker A:Here we go.
Speaker A:It's all about how you handle plan B.
Speaker C:Plan B.
Speaker A:What do you think about that?
Speaker C:Do you have a plan B, Rev?
Speaker B:Well, I've got a planned D, F, also all the way to Z, you know, but what I.
Speaker B:I guess what I would say to this one is if you consider plan A not working a failure, then you're not handling your plan B well.
Speaker A:Oh, there's a.
Speaker B:You've given up already.
Speaker A:There's a great perspective.
Speaker B:Sometimes plan B is better than plan A and you didn't realize it till you failed.
Speaker C:I would say most of the time, yeah, it's true.
Speaker C:That's my experience.
Speaker A:That's a great perspective, gang.
Speaker A:So it takes plan A and it takes plan B.
Speaker A:And it says we're all working together.
Speaker A:Everything's working together to the good.
Speaker C:Here's what I love about the concept of plan B.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:It's about being adaptable.
Speaker C:Like being able to adapt.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And problem solve.
Speaker C:Like, these are things I love in life.
Speaker C:Like, I've talked about these being adventures.
Speaker C:I mean, I wish more people would look at it like that.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:You know, we.
Speaker A:You know, we talk about all kinds.
Speaker A:Sometimes it takes thinking differently, right?
Speaker A:Sometimes it takes approaching things differently, looking at things differently, you know, whatever, seeking some help.
Speaker B:Well, sometimes plan A not working forces you to think differently.
Speaker B:So you're a different person because plan A didn't work.
Speaker B:So you're more of yourself.
Speaker B:Unplanned.
Speaker A:B.
Speaker A:I think that's exactly part of the plan.
Speaker A:And then, you know, and sometimes plans A's do work out.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:But, you know, I think it.
Speaker A:The whole challenge of having to have a plan B can really enhance the whole experience.
Speaker A:Can it?
Speaker C:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker C:Especially if plan A is a failure.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Instead of getting stuck on it, you get the pivot, you get to adjust, move forward.
Speaker C:You got an alternate plan.
Speaker C:Life is good.
Speaker A:There it is.
Speaker A:So have an A.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And have a B.
Speaker A:And maybe sometimes, like the ref says, you might need a cd and E.
Speaker C:All the way down.
Speaker A:All the way.
Speaker A:But each iteration, you know, might.
Speaker C:So good.
Speaker A:Take you there closer.
Speaker A:So there it is.
Speaker A:It's all about how you handle plan B, gang.
Speaker A:All right, but we're on plan A.
Speaker A:At least we're starting with plan A.
Speaker A:We might run some buddy trips.
Speaker C:We have a plan B for tonight.
Speaker A:You know, plan B comes naturally.
Speaker C:I think we.
Speaker C:We hit plan B, C, and D every sing episode.
Speaker B:I think we have 10, five minutes into our episode, we're already in plan F.
Speaker B:Just the beauty.
Speaker A:That's just the beauty of who we are.
Speaker A:So here we are.
Speaker A:Religion.
Speaker A:We're talking about the roller coaster of religion.
Speaker A:So maybe you ought to start here a little bit with.
Speaker A:Let's just kind of talk about religion.
Speaker A:That word.
Speaker A:What's the connotation of it?
Speaker A:What do you think of when you hear the word?
Speaker A:But a basic definition.
Speaker A:We'll just start with that.
Speaker A:That it's our.
Speaker A:It's our human.
Speaker A:It's a human's relationship with the who.
Speaker A:Holy, sacred, the absolute, the Spiritual or.
Speaker B:Maybe the divine or maybe just life itself.
Speaker B:It's my relationship with life.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, all of the above.
Speaker A:All of the above.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:When you say it's a relationship and typically in there with religion, there is some sort of structure to that, whatever it means.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:It doesn't, you know, and everybody gets all, you know, heebie jeebie about that stuff.
Speaker A:But, you know, if you're just out there willy nilly all the time, then I don't think you can really practice and deepen, you know, your faith or your spirituality or religion, whatever it might be, if you're just kind of out there floating around.
Speaker B:You know, one of the things I love about this podcast is that we're always kind of saying, suspend your previous thought for a moment.
Speaker B:If you have a new thought, just step back.
Speaker B:And when a word spoken like religion.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:There's a knee jerk response for some people.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not good.
Speaker B:Just step back from it and go.
Speaker B:Me open up my mind and my heart to a different way to look at it.
Speaker A:I think we're going to bring that.
Speaker C:That's a great way to go through life, I think, with, with anything.
Speaker A:Yeah, true.
Speaker A:Well, we had a, you know, we, we were going around a little bit in the pre show.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was fun.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:We were thinking a little differently.
Speaker A:It was fun.
Speaker B:So nobody got hurt, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Physically or emotionally?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:We all signed.
Speaker A:Oh, boy.
Speaker A:Huh?
Speaker A:Plan B.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:We might need plan C.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Religion.
Speaker A:There we go.
Speaker A:There's a definition, you know, and there's approximately 10,000 distinct religions worldwide.
Speaker C:That is a lot.
Speaker A:That's a lot in it.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So right there, I hope we're saying to you, as you're listening to this, depending upon your faith or your religious background or whatever your teachings you've had, there's a lot of ways to look at this whole thing, okay?
Speaker A:I mean, the divine, the bigger than me, the whatever you want to put in there, the universe, you know, God, whatever.
Speaker A:There's lots of different ways that this gets looked at and this gets practiced.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:So let's just realize that.
Speaker A:Let's be okay with that.
Speaker A:Let's just get comfortable with it and then we can move on.
Speaker B:And which one's right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or are they all right, well, I.
Speaker C:Got that in all 10,000.
Speaker B:Yeah, all 10,000.
Speaker B:Have a little piece of the truth, perhaps.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I, I landed the plane when we get to the third section and I just, just so everybody else can know exactly what they need to do.
Speaker A:I got it.
Speaker B:The Gospel According to Matt.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, I've read this book.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We're gonna start a Sunday afternoon.
Speaker A:We're going to be in such and such a place.
Speaker A:Come for the offering plate.
Speaker A:All right, here we go.
Speaker A:So approximately 10,000 distinct religions worldwide.
Speaker A:Religion.
Speaker A:Now, here's an interesting point.
Speaker A:Think about this for a second, because what I'm going to probably tell you is you're going to go, what is he talking about?
Speaker A:Religion.
Speaker A:The word, the concept of it is really a modern thing.
Speaker A:It's not something that's been around forever.
Speaker A:The Jewish people in the Older Testament, they wouldn't consider.
Speaker A:They had a religion.
Speaker A:They just had a life.
Speaker A:They had a life that incorporated their faith, their God, their way to practice, their way to go to school, the way to go to work.
Speaker A:I mean, it was all one, and.
Speaker B:It was all done religiously.
Speaker B:It's my way of life.
Speaker B:It's my path.
Speaker B:It's how I live.
Speaker B:And I live it religious.
Speaker B:Religiously.
Speaker A:You live it religiously.
Speaker A:I mean, it's.
Speaker A:Again, it's a holism that says.
Speaker A:Until we got into the, you know, this whole idea of the age of reason, where we started carving things up, oh, that's the religion.
Speaker A:This is the life.
Speaker A:You know, we.
Speaker A:That we put life over here and we put religion over here, and we compartmentalized them and we separated them, and it probably created a whole lot of problems for us that we never even anticipated when that gets separation.
Speaker A:Because the minute we got dualism, that gets entered into the whole scenario.
Speaker A:Boy, that runs rapid trails all over the place.
Speaker A:It gets ubiquitous.
Speaker A:It runs into everything.
Speaker A:So understand that It's.
Speaker A:It's kind of a new concept that we're going to talk about your religion or mine or their religion.
Speaker A:But think about that for a second.
Speaker A:And we've lost something in there.
Speaker A:The minute we categorized it and labeled it, we lost something.
Speaker A:Okay, then religion.
Speaker A:Without a doubt.
Speaker A:10,000.
Speaker A:We just talked about that.
Speaker A:It's as diverse as the cultures that practice it.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's for real.
Speaker C:Because there's different people involved.
Speaker A:First of all, they have different histories.
Speaker A:They have different ways to have different cultures.
Speaker A:They have different ways of looking at each other.
Speaker A:And that stuff that they can't figure out.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, so, you know, you gotta say that's good.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Diversity.
Speaker B:Everybody's had a different experience, and therefore they're seeking.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's different and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Isn't that a beautiful thing?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, unless we have to compartmentalize Right.
Speaker B:Then there's the right way to live and the wrong way to live.
Speaker B:Well, the right way to know the infinite and the wrong way to know the infinite.
Speaker B:That's put you in a box.
Speaker A:We're good at that, are we?
Speaker B:We forget we belong to each other.
Speaker A:We are so good at that.
Speaker A:All right, so, you know, and I think when we talk about religion, the word faith, you know, always comes in there somewhere.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Especially us in the West.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:So, you know, that word, that word faith, you know, is typically, it's a strong belief in a higher power and.
Speaker A:Or the doctrines of a religion, and it's based upon spirituality versus proof or fact.
Speaker A:So again, it's that.
Speaker A:It's that thing that you say, I have faith that.
Speaker A:And typically will prove to me there's a God and I'll believe that kind of thing.
Speaker A:I mean, you can't do it, right?
Speaker B:Well, you got to put this in context.
Speaker B:I have faith that the sun's going to come up tomorrow.
Speaker B:I believe.
Speaker B:I don't know how it all works.
Speaker B:I have faith when I hit the switch that the light's going to come on.
Speaker B:Take it out of the realm of religion.
Speaker B:Just put it.
Speaker B:We all have faith in something.
Speaker B:Even atheists and agnostics have faith in something good with the people that they know and the interactions they have and the way they live their life.
Speaker B:So faith is not just necessarily a religious word.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:It's a way of life word.
Speaker C:So you asked in the beginning of the episode, what's the difference between religion and belief?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And to me, beliefs are just kind of individual more.
Speaker C:They could be collective, but there's just ideas about, like morality and purpose, you know, of life.
Speaker C:But religion is more organized.
Speaker C:Same type of things, organized system of beliefs, maybe practices, rituals, things like that.
Speaker C:Here's one thing that I know.
Speaker C:I hope this becomes a meme.
Speaker C:I've been waiting all day to say this.
Speaker C:So here we go.
Speaker C:While all religions include beliefs, not all beliefs constitute a religion.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker B:That'll preach.
Speaker A:There's some stuish wisdom right there.
Speaker A:I love that Jewish wisdom, you know, Stewism, you know.
Speaker A:You know what I think way back, Julie was talking about when we did.
Speaker A:When we did the first podcast, that she was wanting to say something like Mac and stew or Mac and cheese or something like that, that she was calling the two of us, right?
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker B:What I love is what you just.
Speaker A:Said comes from an open heart.
Speaker B:This Mac stew comes from an open heart and an open mind, not a compartmentalized I can have a belief system and religiously live that belief system without it being organized by human mind to be in a box.
Speaker B:Yeah, it has to be a organized religion.
Speaker A:So is that a foreign concept for you to think that we can.
Speaker A:We can be humble and we can be gracious and we can be okay with that?
Speaker A:Or all of a sudden, are we bumping up against something here that you believe that's part of your practice, maybe that you have to push back on a little bit?
Speaker A:Maybe it's there.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I'm just saying, you know, recognize it.
Speaker A:But maybe, as Rev was saying, put that preconceived notion to the side a little bit and just say, well, wherever they're coming from, there's goodness.
Speaker B:It's the willingness to suspend any belief that I have a corner on the market of truth.
Speaker B:Yeah, I have a corner on the market of belief or a faith or of God that just puts God in that little box, you know, and so it means you have to suspend a little bit of what you've maybe believed.
Speaker B:And that's a good thing.
Speaker B:It's not a horrible thing.
Speaker A:Totally agree.
Speaker A:Totally agree.
Speaker A:So, and this might be a little bit of a difficult.
Speaker A:Especially been living in the bubble.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:You've been living in that comfortable little bubble.
Speaker A:And again, I'm not saying there's wrong with the bubble, but I'm just saying there's so much better.
Speaker A:Typically, if you go outside, my bubbles.
Speaker B:Have served me really, really well in the past, and I eventually break out of the bubble and get a new one, a bigger one.
Speaker A:All right, Exactly.
Speaker A:So, you know, we're gonna.
Speaker A:We're gonna spend a little time.
Speaker A:Let's talk about some of the benefits, because there's certainly benefits to religious practices.
Speaker A:And I use that word instead of saying religion, all right, Because I think we can separate and it's easier to not have a preconceived notion when we say religious practices as opposed to saying typical benefits of religion, you know, hold it a little lightly.
Speaker A:Then we'll talk after.
Speaker A:After we take a little bit of a break.
Speaker A:We'll talk about some of the dark sides, some of the stuff that can get away from us, some of the stuff that can cause issues and especially relational issues.
Speaker A:That's really what we're, you know, we're going to focus on because we can, as we practice religion, any.
Speaker B:Any good thing when it's used unconsc.
Speaker B:Can be dangerous.
Speaker B:So let's talk about the good stuff.
Speaker C:Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker A:So there's some of that.
Speaker A:And then we'll, you know, we'll wrap up at the very end with maybe some, you know, ways that you can do it a little better.
Speaker A:We used to talk about that all the time.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Some places just do a little bit better.
Speaker C:I can't help.
Speaker C:I can't help.
Speaker C:I gotta say this.
Speaker C:Mac, Mac and Rev, there is power in the dark side.
Speaker C:So that's my best Darth Vader I can do.
Speaker A:I don't have a lightsaber, but there is, there.
Speaker C:There is.
Speaker C:There is that.
Speaker C:I mean.
Speaker C:Oh, sure, you know, and it can be, well, deceiving, but it could be inviting, too, to people.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, you know, I think we'll.
Speaker A:We'll highlight.
Speaker C:I'd rather spend time in the light.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, what are the benefits?
Speaker B:We keep talking about the benefits.
Speaker B:I want to hear them.
Speaker A:Benefits, benefits, practices.
Speaker A:So first of all, I mean, this.
Speaker A:This isn't any.
Speaker A:This no priority here.
Speaker A:In other words, one, not the first one isn't more important than the second one.
Speaker C:We're just reaching in and grabbing one, pulling it out.
Speaker A:We're just going to grab.
Speaker A:So how about a fact that.
Speaker A:That just religious practices provide a sense of purpose?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, you can.
Speaker A:And hopefully that's a good sense of purpose.
Speaker A:That's, you know, that's out there giving you confidence and that you are, you know, being a flow.
Speaker A:We talked about that last week.
Speaker A:The flow.
Speaker B:It brings meaning and purpose to life.
Speaker A:It does, yeah, sure.
Speaker A:I mean, again, everybody.
Speaker A:Well, lots of folks had a bad church experience.
Speaker C:Many, many, many.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:Or whatever the religion you might have been practicing, you know, a lot of people have had a bad experience with it.
Speaker A:But again, you got to kind of stand a little bit above that and say, you know, there is good there to be had.
Speaker A:Let's just go out there and I tell you a little bit.
Speaker B:Religion, good, bad or otherwise, in my experience, taught me to get outside of myself and to feel connected to other people.
Speaker B:It taught me that even if it was a bad experience I didn't agree with, I lear sitting in those pews that took me out of my narrowness and put me into oneness with the world.
Speaker A:Well, if you don't look upon the whole experience as something that benefits in the long run and because you can't maybe see it.
Speaker A:And initially, it's a.
Speaker A:It's a great attitude to adopt if you're kind of looking at it and leaning in.
Speaker A:So we've talked about this a lot, but let's Just highlight it.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:It builds community.
Speaker C:This is my favorite.
Speaker C:My favorite benefit and social bonding.
Speaker C:Like strong communities, like a sense of belonging like this.
Speaker C:I mean, you find your people.
Speaker C:You find your people.
Speaker A:Yeah, you find your people.
Speaker A:Yeah, we talk about that in MI5 at the end always, don't we?
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker A:And you do have a connection to tradition as well.
Speaker A:You know, that, that we're, we're a culture of, you know, generations and, and there are very.
Speaker A:There are lots of good things that gets passed along.
Speaker A:There are great traditions that if you sink into it, you understand them, you.
Speaker A:You practice them as opposed to just something wrote that you guys just do because everybody does it all the time.
Speaker A:They can be very beautiful.
Speaker B:Well, and on the other side of that, we're like the bridge.
Speaker B:We're in the center place.
Speaker B:We're looking into antiquity.
Speaker B:We're taking wisdom from the, the ages.
Speaker B:And then we're.
Speaker B:Then the middle point, passing it on to the progeny, to the kids that need also that wisdom that benefits them.
Speaker B:We get to be the middle point and we get to decipher that isn't something they need to hear.
Speaker B:We can take the good and pass it on.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's discernment.
Speaker A:I think that each generation comes and says, you know, what are the new things that are coming now and what are the things that we can say?
Speaker A:Thank you, but.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We just don't need to bring forward.
Speaker A:Okay, but community, without a doubt.
Speaker A:Then, you know, there's.
Speaker A:There's this idea that as you gather in community and as you purpose to do good, you know, it can.
Speaker A:Religious practices can cultivate positive social change.
Speaker A:That's a good one.
Speaker A:Moral guidance, you know, a lot of times we need the guardrails.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:And so this can help us in that regard.
Speaker C:Well, it helped me growing up just with, you know, my.
Speaker C:This ethics.
Speaker C:Ethical behavior, even compassion, I mean, just.
Speaker C:It just taught me, you know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:This moral guidance, I guess you'd call it.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, and I think if you, if you have a positive outlook on life and the world and at all.
Speaker A:At all, then, you know, you're going to have that optimistic view that's going to promote generosity.
Speaker A:Generosity that you never would think about.
Speaker A:How about just, you know, this has been proven that basically people that have a religious practice, okay, they live longer in general, all right, because they're more at peace, they're one with others, better.
Speaker A:There's less stress in their life, there's less anxiety.
Speaker A:Now, again, don't get me wrong, all right, you're going to be saying out there.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, but you.
Speaker C:I was about to say that to you.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And there's always going to be those buts that you.
Speaker A:You've had to live through, that you've had to experience that, you know, were horrible sometimes.
Speaker A:Maybe that really just were.
Speaker A:Was just you don't want anything to do with anything organized religion anymore.
Speaker B:On some of those.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Buts are.
Speaker B:Are justified.
Speaker B:They're very real.
Speaker B:And some of them are manufactured by the person who didn't want to get out of themselves.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, what I learned in religion and sitting in a pew or sitting in a forest somewhere was it's not all about me.
Speaker B:And religion has really served that purpose, at least for me and a lot of people I know it's not all about me.
Speaker B:There's something so much, much grander and more beautiful than just my narrow little field that brought me comfort.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:But it also put my ego in check.
Speaker B:And some people leave with the abbots in church because they didn't want to put their ego in check.
Speaker B:You know, let's be fair to the church that it's doing good work.
Speaker B:And sometimes the bad rap they get is just somebody's inability to get out of their ego.
Speaker C:Good point.
Speaker C:If I could pivot a little bit off of that, you'd mentioned generosity, Mac, as well.
Speaker C:And there's charitable work, humanitarian work, you know, that.
Speaker C:That religions engage in and do some good things around the world or in their communities.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:Yeah, and.
Speaker C:And it's.
Speaker C:It's beneficial not only to whomever you're.
Speaker C:You're.
Speaker C:You're working to help, but also, man, if you do some of this yourself, it changes you forever.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I mean, you know, you've done a lot of this, man.
Speaker C:Internationally especially, so it really changes you.
Speaker A:Well, you know, it get the end of the day here.
Speaker A:What do we.
Speaker A:You know, we keep repeating stuff just in a different way because all this stuff works together.
Speaker A:It's all got a common theme.
Speaker A:You know, that practicing a faith, a religion, a.
Speaker A:In community can change your life.
Speaker A:I mean, it can.
Speaker A:It can be a very beautiful thing and however you want to choose to do it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:We're not trying to pigeonhole any particular way to make it happen.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But more than zero.
Speaker A:We like to talk about more than zero.
Speaker A:More than zero.
Speaker C:Hey, let me.
Speaker C:Let me name one more.
Speaker C:I know we.
Speaker C:I know we got to move on, but just.
Speaker B:I was going to give you five.
Speaker C:One more.
Speaker C:One more quick one.
Speaker C:So there's cultural and artistic inspiration that Religions can.
Speaker C:Can provide too.
Speaker C:I mean, you know, religions are a major force in literature, music.
Speaker C:I mean, we're musicians, you know, the revenue and.
Speaker C:And architecture, whatever.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I mean, you have that aspect of it, too.
Speaker C:Let's not forget it.
Speaker A:Well, then you have to say, where does that creative.
Speaker A:Because that's what you're talking about, creative creativity.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where does that creativity come from?
Speaker A:Depends on what you believe.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And how would.
Speaker A:But we would go to a place that said it's, you know, it's God to you through you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And these religious practices in community can help bring that out.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And that's the root.
Speaker A:And then as Stu was talking about, all kinds of fruit just pops up all over the place.
Speaker A:Because you're grounded in a way that.
Speaker A:That if you weren't, the creativity would get stifled.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Well, because you're in an environment that's.
Speaker B:This is arguably so safe.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm safe to create.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:It's such a loving environment.
Speaker B:And regardless, good, bad or otherwise of the dogma or the doctrine, they for the most part are safe places to express artistically.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker C:There's encouragement, support.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Makes it safe.
Speaker A:We understand that there's exceptions out there and some people have had some bad experiences.
Speaker B:Oh, we're going to get to that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes, we are.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker C:The dark side.
Speaker A:We got Dark Vader over here, man.
Speaker A:Oh, God.
Speaker A:I think I got the Sith on my left hand side.
Speaker C:Oh, man.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker C:He knows his terminology.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:All right, so, you know, religious practices, couple more of them, and then we're going to take a break.
Speaker A:You know, our behavior.
Speaker A:We've been talking about this, just to use.
Speaker A:Hasn't used that word.
Speaker A:You know, it gives us some behavioral guidelines.
Speaker A:And with that, the guardrails, the things that you just like with the teenager, you just don't let them go off on their own and do whatever they're going to do.
Speaker A:They like that.
Speaker A:They think they like that, but in, you know, in reality, they need the guardrails, they need the oversight.
Speaker A:They need the love that comes, you know, through all of that.
Speaker A:And so again, you're going to pick up on a very hopefully loving environment that you can have happiness through and a sense of well being.
Speaker B:Well, not happiness.
Speaker B:You know, the word worship is over cultures, you know, all different religions and institutions.
Speaker B:The word worship means to just recognize value.
Speaker B:I recognize value in life.
Speaker B:And so religion for me brought me a sense of worship, which was I recognized I had value.
Speaker B:You have value, everybody has value.
Speaker B:And I Got that through a religious institution or two or three.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And so worship brings joy, a sense of belonging and community, that connection that I think the world needs desperately to do.
Speaker A:Well, I think if we can just learn to fine tune it again, like we're talking about, let's bring forward those things that can still be relevant, that can still benefit, that can still make it a little bit better, and then be open enough to be able to say, oh, but that one.
Speaker A:Now we need.
Speaker A:It's time for this.
Speaker A:It's time for this now to look at it this way.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker A:So it's an evolution as well.
Speaker A:Whatever your practices are should be evolutionary as well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:Evolutionary.
Speaker B:Your last bullet point here gives context to the unknowable aspects of life.
Speaker B:It makes us become friends with the mystery.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't have to know everything.
Speaker B:I can be okay with not knowing.
Speaker A:And I'm at peace with that.
Speaker A:You know, it's awesome.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:All right, so we talked about what is typically religion.
Speaker A:You know, the good stuff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The Yoda stuff, the.
Speaker A:The Jedi stuff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:The light lightsabers, the light light sabers.
Speaker A:But then we're gonna take a little break and then again we'll talk about some of the downsides and wrap it all up.
Speaker A:So thanks for listening and we'll be back just in just a minute.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Welcome back.
Speaker A:I'm not sure what you're being welcome back to, though.
Speaker A:We are.
Speaker A:We are some wise guys tonight.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But we're having some fun with this.
Speaker A:And we've been talking, talking about religion and the roller coaster of religion.
Speaker A:So it's been fun.
Speaker A:Now we get to chat about some of the ugg.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Some of the stuff, some of the butt.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But that we were talking about earlier.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we have, you know, let's just kick around some possible.
Speaker A:This isn't with everything by any means, okay.
Speaker A:Downsides of having religious practices and what they do for us and to us.
Speaker B:You know, we were meeting earlier, before the episode.
Speaker B:You have to understand religion in its original inception.
Speaker B:The word, what it really meant was to bring people together.
Speaker B:But the downsides come when we forget that that's the purpose of religion and we begin to separate.
Speaker B:Those are the bad experiences I think we're going to talk about is that we compartmentalize and we don't unite.
Speaker B:We push against.
Speaker A:We separate.
Speaker A:I think that's perfect.
Speaker A:So, you know, you have to really, you know, this is a tough thing to kind of discern.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:But I'm Going to put it out there and just have you think about it, that when some religion forms, okay.
Speaker A:You know, is there, do they have intentional manipulation, you know, toward their benefit or they just have some misaligned or misguided adherence to a dogma or mythology.
Speaker A:You know, it's, it's hard to, to, it's hard to separate that maybe sometimes because you don't want to believe that people or institutions have their own best interest in mind as opposed to yours.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But I think you can look throughout history and you can, I mean, it's not.
Speaker A:You don't have to look too hard to see where the manipulation has moved itself in from a very good thing to something that's more self serving.
Speaker C:This can happen.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker C:I'd say more.
Speaker C:You guys might debate me on this, but I could say more exception than the rule.
Speaker C:But it happens.
Speaker A:No, yeah, I would agree that it's more the exception, especially I think today, because you got to remember that, you know, since the forming of Christianity or Jesus when he was on the earth, you know, there's other religions that got formed after or before or whatever.
Speaker A:You know, it's been a constant flow.
Speaker A:There really weren't lots of choices, I guess is what I'm getting at.
Speaker A:It wasn't like you were going over here like you can today.
Speaker A:And so, well, I'm going to be a Baptist or I'm going to be a Methodist or I'm going to be Episcopalian.
Speaker A:It wasn't like that.
Speaker A:And so the church in for many, many centuries dominated, you know, religious thought, dominated what people thought about God and how they looked at God.
Speaker A:And that was a big stick that the church would use around the globe to basically beat a lot of people into submission.
Speaker A:Okay, right.
Speaker A:So, you know, we have a history there that we go back to that could say, ugh, okay, well.
Speaker B:And the more choices we have for our spiritual path and our religious life, the more it's not just a big stick.
Speaker B:It's at the edge of a knife.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Do you believe like I believe?
Speaker B:Sure I do.
Speaker B:Just don't slip my throat.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and the reality, our history is not so pretty.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:That religion is used as a weapon.
Speaker B:God's on my side, not on your side.
Speaker B:So don't go outside the box.
Speaker A:Well, and even a lot of Christians killed each other because we didn't have the same belief about Jesus, you know, so.
Speaker A:So you got that.
Speaker A:So that's a possible downside.
Speaker A:How about just the fact that you spout certain dogmas that just, you know, People just go, that doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker A:And I know we've been in this environment before, so, you know, it depends on your religion, depends on your faith, depends on your perspective.
Speaker A:But a lot of times there's a credibility lost when it demands of you blind acceptance and faith, I'll call it.
Speaker A:You know, that would definitely swim against logical.
Speaker A:Now, again, everything.
Speaker A:It's not all logical either.
Speaker A:There's mystery involved.
Speaker A:But again, when you.
Speaker A:When you ask people to just check their brain and their logic at the door and just believe, just have faith.
Speaker C:How many times have you heard that?
Speaker C:Yep, just have faith.
Speaker C:You don't need to know anything.
Speaker C:Yeah, I heard this growing up.
Speaker C:You don't need to know.
Speaker C:Just.
Speaker B:Just believe.
Speaker C:Just have faith.
Speaker A:So, yeah, you know, I think we're.
Speaker A:We're revolving out of that.
Speaker A:Just, you know, the card we did an episode on, Throw the card.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And a lot of times what happens with religious practices it rejects not, if not outwardly, then by practice, the fact that there are universal truths.
Speaker A:And I think Rev mentioned this a little earlier, that if any religion thinks they got a lock on the truth and you don't, whoever you are, but.
Speaker C:You'Re not us, we're right, you're wrong.
Speaker C:Is that.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, we got it.
Speaker A:You don't.
Speaker A:Okay, this is the truth.
Speaker A:This is God.
Speaker A:This is this.
Speaker A:This is the way it works.
Speaker A:And it doesn't mean that they're wrong.
Speaker A:It just means that when you adopt a posture that says whatever it is is going on out there, however you differ from whoever meet, we got it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So, you know, that's.
Speaker A:That can be pretty.
Speaker B:Pretty unconscious is the way I would use it.
Speaker B:I'm going to cut some slack.
Speaker B:Not controlling.
Speaker B:It's unconscious.
Speaker B:Unconscious.
Speaker B:And I'd say, really, it's outlived its.
Speaker B:Its worth and its value on the planet.
Speaker B:If what's happening with my religious system means I have to separate people and keep them separate, separate from each other, it's no longer of any value on earth.
Speaker B:It may have served a purpose at one point.
Speaker B:So is the religious system or the life I'm living inviting, welcoming, or is it separating?
Speaker B:Big distinction.
Speaker B:And it's just a symbol of unconscious or consciousness.
Speaker C:You know what I wanted to say when you were describing that?
Speaker C:I wanted to say, worry about your own self.
Speaker C:You know, I know it's bad grammar, but it sounded better in my head that way.
Speaker C:Worry about your own self.
Speaker C:So, you know, I'd rather be inspired than told I'm wrong and you better change your Mind inspire me.
Speaker C:Like I might, you know, I'm open minded.
Speaker C:I might hear something that works for me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I heard somebody say just this week, I'd rather see a sermon than hear one.
Speaker B:Show me, show me.
Speaker B:Be known by your fruits.
Speaker B:The way you're behaving and acting speaks more about love than what you're speaking.
Speaker C:I'll tell you what, I say this a lot, but people are always watching.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're always looking.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:They're always watching.
Speaker C:And this is all part of it.
Speaker A:You know, we.
Speaker A:There's all kinds of things that can cause this thing to go south.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It starts out good.
Speaker A:It starts out with good intentions.
Speaker A:And like, like the rep was saying, sometimes it's unconscious to where you're going.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Other times I'm not so sure.
Speaker A:I think that there is a component out there that maybe isn't the norm, like Stu said, of just, you know, purposeful manipulation.
Speaker A:You know, but, you know, I think that's the exception.
Speaker A:I do think that.
Speaker A:That Stu said.
Speaker A:But you have to be careful that you don't just have blind adherence to what might be misguided dogmas.
Speaker A:And, you know, we can think of the Jim Jones stuff and some of this other kind of deal, right.
Speaker B:We have.
Speaker B:How weak is my religious system if I cannot handle a question?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Welcome the questions.
Speaker B:And I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm a house built on sand.
Speaker B:If I can't handle your question.
Speaker A:That's right, you need that.
Speaker B:The house of cards is going to come tumbling down, and maybe that's a good thing.
Speaker B:Then you can rebuild with something more stable.
Speaker C:Well, maybe.
Speaker C:Maybe humans can't handle the question.
Speaker C:But I tell you what, there isn't a question alive that God can't handle.
Speaker A:He can.
Speaker A:Can.
Speaker C:He can handle it.
Speaker C:So if you allow that to flow into you and out.
Speaker C:I mean, any question can be.
Speaker C:Can be handled.
Speaker C:And you will.
Speaker C:You will have a better relationship not only with God, but with whoever you're interacting with by allowing that to happen.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're right.
Speaker C:I'm not going to get.
Speaker C:That'll preach fre.
Speaker B:I was thinking it.
Speaker A:Man.
Speaker C:I was like working for it.
Speaker B:Hallelujah, brother.
Speaker B:Hallelujah.
Speaker A:He put his hand up and Waiting for the amen, man.
Speaker A:Okay, all right.
Speaker A:We've already talked about this, but I'll make it a little more succinct.
Speaker A:You know, that if you are in a.
Speaker A:In a practice, a religious practice that furthers and promotes dualism, and this is what the rev was saying, this is what Stu was Saying that if.
Speaker A:That if.
Speaker A:If I'm taught that there's those people and these people and they're separate from me people, all right?
Speaker A:Either by God or by me, they're on the outs, all right?
Speaker A:Then all of a sudden, we're promoting that.
Speaker A:And that has the most incredible ripple effect through everything.
Speaker B:You know, I don't know who was it and said it, said, we can be assured that we have created God in our image when God hates all the same people that we hate.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:That's not right.
Speaker B:They're all wrong.
Speaker B:And God told me so.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We need to kill them or we need to eliminate them or we need to whatever.
Speaker C:Okay, well, this has happened in history.
Speaker A:I mean, well, it's still happening.
Speaker C:I'd like to say.
Speaker C:I know, I know, but it's less.
Speaker B:It's happening less, Right.
Speaker A:There's less parts of the world that this kind of thing is.
Speaker A:Is taking place, but there's still, you know, again, doesn't matter which religion now.
Speaker A:We're not pigeonholing any one of them, but there is still persecution, you know, I mean, you know, one faith persecuting another or.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Whatever it might, sometimes within their own, you know, we just got different division.
Speaker B:Well, take it out of religion.
Speaker B:Take religion out of it.
Speaker B:One tribe against another tribe.
Speaker B:It's one family.
Speaker B:The hatfields and the McCoys.
Speaker B:We're the winners, you're the loser.
Speaker B:Somebody has to lose.
Speaker B:We lost sight that we belong to each other, that we all can win, and we cooperate and we work together.
Speaker B:So, yes, God just becomes a weapon.
Speaker B:Oh, well, The Hatfields and McCoys don't even have God.
Speaker B:But if I get God on my side now, we're more powerful.
Speaker A:Right, Right, right.
Speaker A:And so these are, you know, these are generalities.
Speaker A:You know, we also have lived.
Speaker A:Lived in the realm of Christianity.
Speaker A:And I'm guessing that many.
Speaker A:Many of you out there that listen to us, you know, either are Christians, would claim to be Christians or have been part of the Christian faith, you know, in some way, shape or form.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So maybe we can just as I can't speak to other faiths, but, you know, I think I can say to us, Christians or Christians, you know, be careful, guys.
Speaker A:Be careful in our.
Speaker A:You know, we get unconscious and we practice our religion, we practice our faith, and maybe we aren't even aware and it's innocent.
Speaker A:I'm not trying to say, you know, you're doing it deliberately, but you're innocent to the possible.
Speaker A:I use that word, negative ripple effects of how you go about practicing and looking at God and relating to one another.
Speaker B:Well, you know, like say as, as a Christian, I follow the example.
Speaker B:Jesus crossed the borders, crossed the boundaries, did not push people away, but he went into their camp and said, let's talk.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Let's, let's share an experience.
Speaker B:My atheist friends, I have a very pagan heart as well, a very earth based tradition.
Speaker B:They, they teach the same thing is that quit fighting over land, go spend time with each other and cultivate the land together.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So again, you take religion out of the, the equation, it, it's just kindness, it's just love, it's just compassion, it's just oneness.
Speaker A:Well, at the end of the day, yes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But how when we practice sometimes our faith and our religion, we don't really look at it that way.
Speaker B:No, we don't.
Speaker A:And so we got to be careful.
Speaker A:A lot of times, especially not especially.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, I didn't mean that word, that, that in Christianity a basis for it can be fear.
Speaker A:You know, we fear God.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so therefore if we fear God, then what's the ripple effects of that?
Speaker A:Well, we don't want to fear God, so how do we not fear him?
Speaker A:How do we, you know, embrace the love and you know, again, and I think it revolves around, we've just got a misguided conception of the divine, you know, that we're taught maybe something that, you know, doesn't really promote the love that we're talking about.
Speaker A:We don't see it, we can't grasp it because it's just part of what we do.
Speaker A:But we're trying to say, think about it in terms of how that might be perceived as something that's not loving.
Speaker B:You know, what's the end byproduct?
Speaker B:You know, I've been in, been in churches where it was all about the fear of God.
Speaker B:And I've been in churches where it was all about the love of God.
Speaker B:Now let's take God out of the equation.
Speaker B:I've been in situations and relationships where it was a fear of life, everything's out to get you, or a love of life.
Speaker B:I tell you, when you're in the love of life, the love of God, the love of humanity, the love of whatever, better things happen, life is good, Life is better.
Speaker C:Life is better.
Speaker A:Life is better.
Speaker C:Well, I was going to share that.
Speaker C:I grew up with having a fear of God and, and that's, that was my childhood and, but as an adult I don't, and so there's different sects of Christianity that That do this.
Speaker C:But, but, yeah, I mean, it.
Speaker C:That was, that's all I knew, you know, and so it felt comfortable.
Speaker C:That was God.
Speaker C:And now as an adult, I'm like, wow, I can't even believe.
Speaker C:Like, how would life have been different for me as a child if I had seen God differently?
Speaker C:And, and I wasn't afraid.
Speaker C:I was, you know, I was just experiencing the love and, and because then that would.
Speaker C:That's what would come out of me, right.
Speaker C:Instead of fear coming out of me, because that's what I was getting from who my God was as a child.
Speaker B:So the question I want to ask is, how did you do it?
Speaker B:How did you break that?
Speaker B:That's what I want our listeners to know.
Speaker B:How to break free of that fearful life, into that loving life.
Speaker B:How did you do it?
Speaker C:I'm going to show you on my screen.
Speaker C:You got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Speaker C:Bowl.
Speaker C:And what that means is I just, I'm an explorer.
Speaker C:I just started exploring.
Speaker C:I mean, I always believe in God.
Speaker C:That's never changed, and Jesus and etc.
Speaker C:But I just kept exploring.
Speaker C:And what that meant for me is, is interacting with different people.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:That is exploration in community.
Speaker C:I wasn't like Indiana Jones by myself, you know, looking for the Raider of the Lost Ark or whatever it is.
Speaker C:The lost ark.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But it was, yeah, so that, I mean, for me, it was just, it was, it was getting into environments where my questions were okay, and people would actually have a conversation with me.
Speaker C:So, I mean, we talked about that in the beginning, right?
Speaker C:I know we're trying to talk about the possible downsides, but what, you know, the benefit of this religious experience is, is being in community.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Well, here's the downside for me.
Speaker B:Fearful people will find more reasons to be afraid.
Speaker B:Loving people will find reasons, more reasons to love.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:You broke out by, I think, living in your authentic nature to go, yeah, living from fear doesn't work.
Speaker B:A fear of God, a fear of people doesn't work.
Speaker C:So who do you want to be around?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:This is the question for me.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's exhausting to be around people that have that fear.
Speaker C:And I feel for them, right, Because I want to inspire them to, to feel the love and to be, you know, that live life differently.
Speaker C:But, but, man, that, that fear can just drain you to.
Speaker A:Well, and I think you can peel back the onion a little bit to say, okay, and then where does that fear come from?
Speaker A:How is it instilled?
Speaker B:Some of it is.
Speaker C:You're told, you're just told I was just told.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You experience.
Speaker C:And so some is experience.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:A lot of the.
Speaker A:A lot of the teaching that I've experienced within, you know, the Christian faith.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:I can't say for everybody, but, you know, it tries to remove your own personal responsibility for your life, for your faith, for your walk, for your connection, for everything.
Speaker B:Could it be that violence in the name of God and in the name of religion is founded in fear?
Speaker A:Oh, I think so.
Speaker B:If I'm so afraid of you, I have to kill you first or destroy your first or destroy your thought first before you attack me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:How's that working for us?
Speaker A:I think history has shown that.
Speaker C:Let me tell you, a monumental point in my life is when I stop saying.
Speaker C:Saying God, why are you doing this to me?
Speaker C:Or why are you not there?
Speaker C:And I was like.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And I changed.
Speaker C:It got changed to God.
Speaker C:Thank you for being here with me.
Speaker C:Life sucks right now, and I so appreciate you being here.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker C:Like, that's that.
Speaker C:I hope everybody can get to that point.
Speaker B:That'll preach, brother.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:It's all right.
Speaker B:Well, you know, and let's just.
Speaker B:Two of my favorite pastors in the Christian world right now have.
Speaker B:Have they get condemned a lot because they are creating a different model and the Christian Orthodox world is attacking them.
Speaker B:You know, one of them's right here in Atlanta, and I just think he's amazing and his.
Speaker B:His model is different than it's been.
Speaker B:Yeah, he's growing the Christian faith.
Speaker B:He's growing the Christian consciousness as opposed to tearing down anybody else.
Speaker B:Yeah, those that are tearing him down are absolutely going to implode, and they'll be gone 10 years from now.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So it's building a better, more loving model, a more inclusive model.
Speaker A:Well, I could learn that.
Speaker A:Could learn doing that better because I'm just basically confrontational in my core.
Speaker A:Anyway.
Speaker A:So, anyway, same.
Speaker B:Same end result, though.
Speaker B:Yeah, hopefully a different thought, a new thought, a new way of being a more living society, getting people to think differently.
Speaker A:That's what we've been all about.
Speaker A:Anyway, okay, so with that.
Speaker A:Oh, we ran over.
Speaker A:When we're at 50.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:We're at 50 tonight.
Speaker A:And so, you know, maybe we'll just.
Speaker A:I don't know, we can just hit a few of these that just say, look, all this stuff that we've been talking about, you know, you do have to apply both your heart and your mind.
Speaker A:Mind.
Speaker A:As you evaluate whatever belief system that you have.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So you don't check your mind at the door and you don't just have your feelings, but you put them both together and then try to do the discernment that you need in order to be comfortable and to believe and to follow.
Speaker A:And hopefully it promotes good in you and whatever it is you're doing out there.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And briv.
Speaker A:You use this word.
Speaker A:I thought it was great.
Speaker A:I replaced it.
Speaker A:Cultivate a resonance with life that will heighten your discernment and your joy.
Speaker A:I thought that was good.
Speaker A:We replaced that because God, life, same thing, right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then use a rule of love as a litmus test for any type of theology.
Speaker A:And we use that.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I'm going to use that word in general that, you know, your theology is what you think and believe about God.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And regardless of what you want to call the divine or whatever it might be, if you start and you run it through love, then, you know, you know, you're going to.
Speaker A:You're going to come out on the right end of the equation.
Speaker A:So there we go.
Speaker A:That's it, guys.
Speaker A:That's all we got.
Speaker A:Religion.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker A:Maybe we, you know, I don't know, maybe we ruffled your feathers a little bit tonight.
Speaker A:Maybe we gave you some perspective that you hadn't had before.
Speaker A:You know, we've all got our own experience with church, with faith, with God.
Speaker A:And so, you know, from a personal standpoint, if you want to dig a little deeper and maybe be exposed to some stuff that might make you think differently, as we're always talking about, I'm going to put a link in the show notes to some blog posts that I did out on Medium.
Speaker A:You might appreciate them, you might not, but I'll stick it out there anyway just to see if you might get something out of it.
Speaker A:At the end of the day, I think that there's an encouragement from all three of us to practice your faith, practice your religion, whether we're not even putting it in a box in community, you know, to do good, then, you know what, however little you know, whichever way you want to choose to do that is up to you.
Speaker C:So you are a beautiful, exotic cocktail.
Speaker C:So do it the way you do it, not the way anybody else does it.
Speaker A:There it is.
Speaker A:But it's all good, good stuff tonight, guys.
Speaker A:I mean, this is a different topic.
Speaker A:This is a little bit, you know, this can get a little bit edgy, you know, but because most people have a faith and have a religion and have something that they do practice, not everybody.
Speaker A:That's okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But they do, and you need to ponder it.
Speaker A:So that's all.
Speaker A:So, guys, thank you.
Speaker C:There you go.
Speaker C:Thanks.
Speaker C:Good conversation.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And we will see you next week.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening, everybody.
Speaker A:And we will be back next week with another.
Speaker A:Oh, and we got a guest two weeks from now.
Speaker A:We don't want to forget about that.
Speaker A:So we may introduce a little bit of him next week.
Speaker A:Getting ready.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's going to be fun.
Speaker A:John.
Speaker A:John Paul's going to be good.
Speaker A:So thanks again.
Speaker A:Have a great week and we'll see you on the flip side.
Speaker A:Take care.
